American Politics 4.0 - Orangeyou Glad He’s Back?

[Looch City]

Lol remember the Godwin's discussions back when Trump was just coming out of the woodworks?

Now look where we are.

Fascism and anything akin to it needs be called out and stamped out. "Maple MAGA" is a real thing, not just some made up word.

[Drak]

Originally Posted by Looch City

Lol remember the Godwin's discussions back when Trump was just coming out of the woodworks?

Now look where we are.

Fascism and anything akin to it needs be called out and stamped out. "Maple MAGA" is a real thing, not just some made up word.

Yep. Ears plugged and goal posts moved.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's hard not to, when their party is full of people supporting the same policies as Trump is implementing, and precursor positioning which helped mould the US into the position it could be taken by Trump. Then they use our tax dollars to go down there and promote vile organizations of hate, the very same that Trump champions.


Honestly I think you have to be a bit dull if you don't see the UCP, Smith, and their policies as a shadow of Trumpism, which is hallmarked by polices such as anti-queer bigotry, anti-intellectualism, seizing control(APP, Policing, ####ing bike lanes), Christofacism, anti-disability, overreach, exceptionalism, and disdain for anyone less fortunate than they are(Alberta oil gives us the power to despise the rest of the country for "getting in our way").

I'm not sure PP is quite as extreme, but I'm not willing to find out by putting him in power. Like, why risk that?

Okay that's fine and all but in today's political climate where most people see everything binary, what exactly about Trudeau's decade in power could you use to convince Conservative voters that they should jump ship? What exactly did he accomplish outside of legalizing pot, and generally spending a lot of his tenure battling scandals, and pandering to the NDP to stay in power? Little to no investment in military and diplomatic services. Screwing up immigration letting in too many people, too fast creating a housing crisis. Creating emissions targets that were unattainable while leaving office with the worst economic growth in recent Canadian history. I mean he kind fanned the flames with is identity politics as Canada had long been one of the more reasonable countries on the planet and Justin and his Liberals deserve a lot of blame for the current division in this country.

I have a problem with PP and can't get behind the anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ, and some of the other religious undertones but a lot of people care about their own personal situations and what they think will be best for them so as bad as you can paint the Conservatives from your personal perspective, the Liberals look equally poor from a different perspective.

[Drak]

lol, “both sides.” I feel like I’m being gaslit. The venom that comes from today’s Conservative Party over MSM and social media is mostly responsible for division. We see constant ops about Canada being a failed nation or a third world country and that messaging isn’t coming from Liberals.

As far as conservative voters being won over, many of those same people had no problem with Harper’s near decade in power.

Thing is, Harper and Trudeau are no longer in office. And today’s conservatives who support PP are pretty extreme.

[Muta]

Last time I checked, only one side is actively and aggressively working to dismantle western democratic systems, openly participates in daily corruption, sowing division between people, completely leaned into easy populist talking points as policy, is disseminating wanton misinformation and lies across media platforms, catering to billionaire classes while suppressing its citizens through economic and now military control. Oh yeah, and also trying to suppress human rights including gender, body autonomy, sexual preference and orientation.

Hint - it ain't the centre or left.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Drak

lol, “both sides.” I feel like I’m being gaslit. The venom that comes from today’s Conservative Party over MSM and social media is mostly responsible for division. We see constant ops about Canada being a failed nation or a third world country and that messaging isn’t coming from Liberals.

As far as conservative voters being won over, many of those same people had no problem with Harper’s near decade in power.

Thing is, Harper and Trudeau are no longer in office. And today’s conservatives who support PP are pretty extreme.

Honestly all I need from conservatives to make me feel like they care at all about democracy is to stop attacking the press. Stop suppressing public media, and stop supporting that with nonsense political angle reasoning. It’s step 1 to the end of the democracy…

[indes]

You know voters are being disingenuous when the whole argument is about Trudeau. No one is voting for Trudeau, no one was going to vote for Trudeau, Trudeau is not in politics anymore because of it.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by indes

You know voters are being disingenuous when the whole argument is about Trudeau. No one is voting for Trudeau, no one was going to vote for Trudeau, Trudeau is not in politics anymore because of it.

I think they're still flabbergasted that after all those Trudeau years, the general public still prefers Liberals (under a proper moderate leader) when faced with the deplorable/Trump-esk Pierre Poilievre.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Okay that's fine and all but in today's political climate where most people see everything binary, what exactly about Trudeau's decade in power could you use to convince Conservative voters that they should jump ship? What exactly did he accomplish outside of legalizing pot, and generally spending a lot of his tenure battling scandals, and pandering to the NDP to stay in power? Little to no investment in military and diplomatic services. Screwing up immigration letting in too many people, too fast creating a housing crisis. Creating emissions targets that were unattainable while leaving office with the worst economic growth in recent Canadian history. I mean he kind fanned the flames with is identity politics as Canada had long been one of the more reasonable countries on the planet and Justin and his Liberals deserve a lot of blame for the current division in this country.

I have a problem with PP and can't get behind the anti-abortion, anti-LGBTQ, and some of the other religious undertones but a lot of people care about their own personal situations and what they think will be best for them so as bad as you can paint the Conservatives from your personal perspective, the Liberals look equally poor from a different perspective.

I am in no way suggesting Trudeau didn't make mistakes, but some of those things you list are true only if you look at them through a Conservative lens. And many are Canadian challenges that (oh, here we go!) Harper didn't do any better on. I think we look for a leader to blame, but the reality is some stuff is really hard for Canada(and other countries as well) to solve. It's hard to do the right thing for the country when the previous PM worked to remove taxes, and the entire right has made that the only option, such that anyone on the left who may say "wait, we do need more money to do these things" is instantly written off by potential voters because of the endless deceitful messaging form places like the Frasier Institute.

As to "fanned the flames with is identity politics" I think that's nonsense, and the same pitfall the US made with regard to DEI and "woke". Ensuring all citizens have their rights protected isn't fanning flames. Defending the vulnerable is a good thing. Most of what gets trotted out as initiatives from the left are just reactions to the right attempting to remove the rights of others.

As to your initial question, "what exactly about Trudeau's decade in power could you use to convince Conservative voters that they should jump ship?" that isn't really a question to bother answering. Nothing? Trudeau has zero roll in government. He's gone. The only thing you can do is look at the current leader and direction of the party and relate it to the stuff Trudeau did, if you want to try to understand where they are going.

No, the far more important question for democracy is "how does voting for this current iteration of Conservative parties in Canada help move them back to sanity, and way from Trumpism?" If you are going to do the political groundwork to change the party from inside, well go ahead. That would be great. But most people don't, so all they have is their vote. And if you vote in support of them, you are admitting you are OK with that direction, which, well, look south. You actually have to reject a party for them to change, which Liberal voters know well, and Conservatives used to. Yes, it means another party will be in power, but that at least ensures we will continue to have a country worth caring for.

And if you do support the current direction, well WTF am I supposed to conclude? You already know my feelings on that, and it's why I am not shy on calling it out. Because it's indisputably wrong. And if your own personal situation has you thinking you are required to vote for your own financial interests, which is nonsense, because you have to be wealthy to benefit, and if you are wealthy, you don't have to "look out for" in a way that does not distill down to selfishness at it's core. It's that, or you have been misled on facts.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Drak

Thing is, Harper and Trudeau are no longer in office. And today’s conservatives who support PP are pretty extreme.

Are they? History shows that a lot of people align with a political party and will typically vote for that party over the course of decades. Are you saying the people that voted for Harper that weren't extreme are extreme today because they support the same party? Trudeau spent nearly his entire tenure bringing up Harper's name but less than a year out of office and we can no longer blame Trudeau for the state of the country? Like I said before it's all binary today which makes it hard to reason with people on either side of the political spectrum.

[WideReceiver]

Hasek speaks out, a thread.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1955025015235076507

[troutman]

Originally Posted by indes

You know voters are being disingenuous when the whole argument is about Trudeau. No one is voting for Trudeau, no one was going to vote for Trudeau, Trudeau is not in politics anymore because of it.

People in CNP quickly replaced #### Trudeau bumper stickers with #### Carney bumper stickers. They never heard of Carney three months ago. It is so simple minded to have one scapegoat to blame for all the problems in the world.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I am in no way suggesting Trudeau didn't make mistakes, but some of those things you list are true only if you look at them through a Conservative lens. And many are Canadian challenges that (oh, here we go!) Harper didn't do any better on. I think we look for a leader to blame, but the reality is some stuff is really hard for Canada(and other countries as well) to solve. It's hard to do the right thing for the country when the previous PM worked to remove taxes, and the entire right has made that the only option, such that anyone on the left who may say "wait, we do need more money to do these things" is instantly written off by potential voters because of the endless deceitful messaging form places like the Frasier Institute.

As to "fanned the flames with is identity politics" I think that's nonsense, and the same pitfall the US made with regard to DEI and "woke". Ensuring all citizens have their rights protected isn't fanning flames. Defending the vulnerable is a good thing. Most of what gets trotted out as initiatives from the left are just reactions to the right attempting to remove the rights of others.

As to your initial question, "what exactly about Trudeau's decade in power could you use to convince Conservative voters that they should jump ship?" that isn't really a question to bother answering. Nothing? Trudeau has zero roll in government. He's gone. The only thing you can do is look at the current leader and direction of the party and relate it to the stuff Trudeau did, if you want to try to understand where they are going.

No, the far more important question for democracy is "how does voting for this current iteration of Conservative parties in Canada help move them back to sanity, and way from Trumpism?" If you are going to do the political groundwork to change the party from inside, well go ahead. That would be great. But most people don't, so all they have is their vote. And if you vote in support of them, you are admitting you are OK with that direction, which, well, look south. You actually have to reject a party for them to change, which Liberal voters know well, and Conservatives used to. Yes, it means another party will be in power, but that at least ensures we will continue to have a country worth caring for.

And if you do support the current direction, well WTF am I supposed to conclude? You already know my feelings on that, and it's why I am not shy on calling it out. Because it's indisputably wrong.

Fuzz you are an extremist. It is what it is. I don't hold it against you as I think your heart is in the right place but you are too far gone to be reasoned with. I think too many of you are using Trump as a boogeyman here equating what's going on in the US to what would happen in Canada under a Conservative government. Like I said before I'm happy with Carney right now because I want what's best for the country but the Liberals under Trudeau weren't that at all, and if the Liberals revert back to that my patience will be tested especially if the Conservatives ever trot out a competent leader.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Fuzz you are an extremist. It is what it is. I don't hold it against you as I think your heart is in the right place but you are too far gone to be reasoned with. I think too many of you are using Trump as a boogeyman here equating what's going on in the US to what would happen in Canada under a Conservative government. Like I said before I'm happy with Carney right now because I want what's best for the country but the Liberals under Trudeau weren't that at all, and if the Liberals revert back to that my patience will be tested especially if the Conservatives ever trot out a competent leader.

Do you live in Alberta? The UCP is trying everything they can to get widespread trumpism in our province. Are the CPC the UCP? PP & Smith have definitely mirrored each other over the past few years, I don't think it's a leap at all to lump them together. Go to the homepage https://www.conservative.ca/ and look at their news lol. Populist ####ing losers.

[Drak]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Are they? History shows that a lot of people align with a political party and will typically vote for that party over the course of decades. Are you saying the people that voted for Harper that weren't extreme are extreme today because they support the same party? Trudeau spent nearly his entire tenure bringing up Harper's name but less than a year out of office and we can no longer blame Trudeau for the state of the country? Like I said before it's all binary today which makes it hard to reason with people on either side of the political spectrum.

Are they? Not sure what your point is. The measuring stick for extremism is pretty easy to define historically you examine the trajectory of ideology and policy over time.

The liberal party is overall, pretty centrist. The Conservative Party, is not. Conservatives tend to vote like it’s a team sport.

The majority of voters in the states elected Trump. Do you think Trump isn’t extreme? You can read back a few lines to see why today’s conservatives are extreme. It’s already been discussed. Constantly attacking the free press. Attacking our country as a failed nation. Pushing MAGA policy. Labelling left of centre politics as socialist ansd communist. It’s all there. You can pretend it’s not and keep blaming Trudeau I guess.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Fuzz you are an extremist. It is what it is. I don't hold it against you as I think your heart is in the right place

barf.

[surferguy]

If only 10% of what is happening in the US happened in Canada under a Conservative government that would still be way too much in the wrong direction.

[ResAlien]

The willful naivety to not see that the Canadian conservative movement is on the same path as the US is quite something. The denial, the both sides-ing, the reactionary defensiveness, we've seen this movie before. It's almost as if history repeats itself? No that's silly if that was the case there'd be some hokey saying about those who choose to ignore it something something.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Fuzz you are an extremist. It is what it is. I don't hold it against you as I think your heart is in the right place but you are too far gone to be reasoned with. I think too many of you are using Trump as a boogeyman here equating what's going on in the US to what would happen in Canada under a Conservative government. Like I said before I'm happy with Carney right now because I want what's best for the country but the Liberals under Trudeau weren't that at all, and if the Liberals revert back to that my patience will be tested especially if the Conservatives ever trot out a competent leader.

What "extreme" views do I hold?

[puffnstuff]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What "extreme" views do I hold?

That pickles are good. You monster.