[Rumour] Andersson confirms he turned down a "very good" offer from another team

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Q for the masses.

Are you better off asking for 1 quality asset (1st) vs multiple lower quality assets (2nd + prospect)?

Do GMs think this way? I’ve never understood asking for 3-4 assets if it means watering down the quality to get a bunch of long shots that will never make the NHL. Just get the 1 higher quality asset, no?

Presumably GMs aren’t willing to even do that, but I have seen rumours in the past on various trades where a GM (not necessarily Conroy) will say I want X plus Y plus Z and I just don’t understand the thinking there. Maybe more magic beans is better than less but probability wise maybe Calgary was better off getting 1 higher quality asset for Iginla then beans and Hanowski, for example. A guy who never really was going to make it outside of a long shot chance.

This is oversimplifying things but I think GMs operate in 2 modes:
1) Build the pipeline - Get quantity of assets and hope some of them pan out.
2) Finishing touches - The organization already has quantity and adding more quantity doesn't help, it is time to sacrifice quantity for quality.

With CP finishing round 34 of the prospect ranking and I think the voting could go to round 40(?), I think now is the time for the Flames to be focused on quality over quantity.

The goal should be to trade Andersson+ for a significant asset instead of receiving a package for Andersson.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Soooo, Edmonton or Vancouver.

Unfortunately both are prob on his list.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Wolven

This is oversimplifying things but I think GMs operate in 2 modes:
1) Build the pipeline - Get quantity of assets and hope some of them pan out.
2) Finishing touches - The organization already has quantity and adding more quantity doesn't help, it is time to sacrifice quantity for quality.

With CP finishing round 34 of the prospect ranking and I think the voting could go to round 40(?), I think now is the time for the Flames to be focused on quality over quantity.

The goal should be to trade Andersson+ for a significant asset instead of receiving a package for Andersson.

But does it need to be the Ras trade? What if teams will give up that quality, only if he signs. Otherwise, they don't want to take that risk. The other teams GM also needs to plan out his team for next year and beyond.

I'll look at Dallas as they have been rumored to be in on Ras for a while now. CP wants a guy like Bischel. Ras not signed, why trade Bichsel? He projects to be top 4 himself. Ras signed, Harley, Ras Lindell and Miro for years, the need for Bischel is less now.

If Conroy can't get the quality because Ras won't sign right now, maybe quantity is ok.

The other way to get quality is take a chance. Take Ottawa's 1st and hope they don't get better.

Take Vegas 1st unprotected down the road and hope they have 1 bad year at the right time.

I don't think you are getting the quality we all want without him agreeing to sign.

If we had a chance to get quality, this draft was the time. Rumor Buffalo for 9th pick was close, asking price was high. I think the Flames did well with the 2 1sts, time will tell.

Adding a good prospect and a 2nd or 2 might allow the Flames to trade up with the 2 1sts next year. History shows teams don't trade too far down though.

At some point we need quality I do agree, but it's not looking good to happen with the Ras trade.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I don’t think retention is as valuable right now.

Also sure that CC has used that lever and it still didn't get him what he was after.

It’s just a bad point in time to be moving this particular asset. It happens sometimes.

Retention is definitely valuable for the teams that are already at the cap ceiling even with the cap going up this year.

• 11 teams have less than $3M in cap space already and only 6 of them have 23 player rosters. That means 5 of those teams needed to add 1-3 players with less than $3M. (Panthers are $3.725M over the cap right now)
• The next 11 teams in the list have $3M to $8M in space, which is not as bad as the first 11 teams bad but definitely is a problem if the team wants to make a significant add. (Note: the Avalanche only have 19/23 players for their roster)

The Canadiens are an outlier because they show as $4.8M over the cap but once the season starts they get $10.5M in space from Price going onto the LTIR. So they basically have $5.7M in space.

But, for any team looking to add a top 4 RD with less than $3M in cap space it is a very challenging situation. Andersson with retention is possibly the only option.

So ya, the cap is going up but a lot of the GMs are burning their cap space as fast as they are getting it.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

But does it need to be the Ras trade? What if teams will give up that quality, only if he signs. Otherwise, they don't want to take that risk. The other teams GM also needs to plan out his team for next year and beyond.

I'll look at Dallas as they have been rumored to be in on Ras for a while now. CP wants a guy like Bischel. Ras not signed, why trade Bichsel? He projects to be top 4 himself. Ras signed, Harley, Ras Lindell and Miro for years, the need for Bischel is less now.

If Conroy can't get the quality because Ras won't sign right now, maybe quantity is ok.

The other way to get quality is take a chance. Take Ottawa's 1st and hope they don't get better.

Take Vegas 1st unprotected down the road and hope they have 1 bad year at the right time.

I don't think you are getting the quality we all want without him agreeing to sign.

If we had a chance to get quality, this draft was the time. Rumor Buffalo for 9th pick was close, asking price was high. I think the Flames did well with the 2 1sts, time will tell.

Adding a good prospect and a 2nd or 2 might allow the Flames to trade up with the 2 1sts next year. History shows teams don't trade too far down though.

At some point we need quality I do agree, but it's not looking good to happen with the Ras trade.

Ya, Conroy could settle for less than what he wants but ... why? It doesn't set a good precedent with the other GMs to cave in your asking price. Also, now is the perfect time for the Flames to demand quality over quantity. The team is logjammed in a bunch of positions and only have a couple of significant needs (#1C, Top 4 LD).

Even in the conversation between trading Andersson as a rental vs. trading Andersson with an extension. In either case you can seek the quality return over the quantity return the difference is that the value of trading Andersson with an extension is bigger than the rental value.

Most people assume that the rental value is a package that equates to a 1st + B prospect. But you could also say that the Rental value is worth an "A prospect" or a "blue chip prospect" (depending on how you value the 1st + prospect package). Right now, 2026 1st round picks might be worth more which means if the team wants to keep their 1st, then they need to offer a significantly better prospect.

Getting more assets, specifically draft picks, with the dream of trading up is a joke. We just watched a draft where there was huge hype for action and almost nothing happened. Get that snake oil out of here!!!1! Also, why get more assets to make a bigger trade in the hypothetical future when you can do it now? Now is better because Andersson is a great asset with a strong market where adding a piece or two should get you into blue chip territory.

Man... I would love to be in the room for these conversations!

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

You list the Red Wings, Canucks and Kings? That is it. Why is that the list?

Kings - I doubt they are sellers, but if they were Doughty has 1 year after this year remaining. If they sold, would they retain salary to get more for Doughty? I think they would.

Canucks - if they made Hronek available, he would be ahead of Ras by a fair amount. He is 27 and his contract expires when he is 35. Ras likely signs to he is 38 and gets more per year. I'll take Hronek

Red Wings - aren't trading Seider

NYI - why are they not on the list? Pulock and Mayfield might be good adds for cheaper and have better contracts

Seattle - Larsson and Dunn? If they decide to tank, both could be available. Dunn is a lefty, but he can play his offside

Preds - Josi? If they tank will Josi move at some point. He plays both sides

Ducks - Trouba could be a cheap pick up

Pens - Karlsson

Flyers - Risto is almost a UFA

There will be more than Ras available at the deadline. Right now, it seems only Ras is available right now with at least 3-5 teams interested.

Pulock makes 6+ million a year as a stay at home dman who provides no offence. Mayfield makes 3.5 million and gives you 6-8 points a year. Neither are nearly as good as Ras defensively. Scratch them from your list.

Kraken ain’t trading either of those players, highly doubt Drew leaves LA but if he did they would have to eat a tonne of salary since he has 26/27 left at 11 million.

Preds ain’t trading their captain, might as well suggest Makar.

Ducks would have to eat salary on Trouba but he also is far inferior to Ras.

Risto provides no offence and limited defence for more money than Ras.

Most of this list is either vastly inferior to Ras or not being traded (Doughty/Josi). Brayden Pachal is a better comparable for half that list than Ras is.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Pulock makes 6+ million a year as a stay at home dman who provides no offence. Mayfield makes 3.5 million and gives you 6-8 points a year. Neither are nearly as good as Ras defensively. Scratch them from your list.

Kraken ain’t trading either of those players, highly doubt Drew leaves LA but if he did they would have to eat a tonne of salary since he has 26/27 left at 11 million.

Preds ain’t trading their captain, might as well suggest Makar.

Ducks would have to eat salary on Trouba but he also is far inferior to Ras.

Risto provides no offence and limited defence for more money than Ras.

Most of this list is either vastly inferior to Ras or not being traded (Doughty/Josi). Brayden Pachal is a better comparable for half that list than Ras is.

Putlock and Mayfield would be cheaper to acquire. Harley and Miro bring the O, why do they need Ras? Cap savings helps with signing Robertson and Harley

Preds won't move Josi, sure now they won't but if they are at the bottom again and Josi wants to chase a cup, is it not possible they move on. He is 35 right now.

Dunn is a UFA soon, Larsson is 32. If they are at the bottom, do they consider 1? I think so.

Drew said years ago when they first started the rebuild he didn't want to be part of a rebuild. If they slipped down the standings and started a rebuild, he would go. His NMC is now a M-NTC. They can trade him to 7 teams without his permission.

If you completely disregard cap hit, age and cost to acquire, I guess you made some good points.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Putlock and Mayfield would be cheaper to acquire. Harley and Miro bring the O, why do they need Ras? Cap savings helps with signing Robertson and Harley

Preds won't move Josi, sure now they won't but if they are at the bottom again and Josi wants to chase a cup, is it not possible they move on. He is 35 right now.

Dunn is a UFA soon, Larsson is 32. If they are at the bottom, do they consider 1? I think so.

Drew said years ago when they first started the rebuild he didn't want to be part of a rebuild. If they slipped down the standings and started a rebuild, he would go. His NMC is now a M-NTC. They can trade him to 7 teams without his permission.

If you completely disregard cap hit, age and cost to acquire, I guess you made some good points.

Comparing Ras to the vast majority of those players also disregards cap hit, Pulock might be one of the worst contracts in the league. Roughly same salary as Weegar but a far far inferior player. Mayfield is somehow worse, a 6/7 dman on any good team for 3.5 million. Dunn would be more expensive than Ras unless the Kraken eat a bunch of salary and would have roughly the same acquisition cost.

Almost all teams avoid a rebuild. Flames are one of the only teams in the past 10 years that I can think of that have fully embraced a rebuild. So that fact also works against the likelihood of any of those players being available. Couple that with that fact that almost none of those players are similar in value to Ras and it is pretty much just a list of defencemen.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Comparing Ras to the vast majority of those players also disregards cap hit, Pulock might be one of the worst contracts in the league. Roughly same salary as Weegar but a far far inferior player. Mayfield is somehow worse, a 6/7 dman on any good team for 3.5 million. Dunn would be more expensive than Ras unless the Kraken eat a bunch of salary and would have roughly the same acquisition cost.

Almost all teams avoid a rebuild. Flames are one of the only teams in the past 10 years t2hat I can think of that have fully embraced a rebuild. So that fact also works against the likelihood of any of those players being available. Couple that with that fact that almost none of those players are similar in value to Ras and it is pretty much just a list of defencemen.

Explain to me what you see that makes Ras so much better than Pulock? Key dman on a team that went to the conference finals 2 years in a row. Puts up 25-35 points a year and is a very good defensive dman.

Ras is going to get at least a mil per year more and a contract that ends when he is 38 vs Pulock's contract that ends when he is 35.

oIf the Flames want 1sts and blue chip prospects and NYI wants B level prospect and 2nds, I'm taking Pulock as I believe he is every bit a good as Ras.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Explain to me what you see that makes Ras so much better than Pulock? Key dman on a team that went to the conference finals 2 years in a row. Puts up 25-35 points a year and is a very good defensive dman.

Ras is going to get at least a mil per year more and a contract that ends when he is 38 vs Pulock's contract that ends when he is 35.

oIf the Flames want 1sts and blue chip prospects and NYI wants B level prospect and 2nds, I'm taking Pulock as I believe he is every bit a good as Ras.

There are a few ways that Andersson is superior:
1) Andersson puts up more points than Pulock.
2) Andersson plays more minutes than Pulock. (24 minutes per game vs 21/22 minutes per game)
3) Andersson misses less games in a season (Pulock has missed almost a third of the last 6 seasons)
4) Andersson blocks more shots (140 v 107 last season)
5) Andersson is 2 years younger

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Putlock and Mayfield would be cheaper to acquire. Harley and Miro bring the O, why do they need Ras? Cap savings helps with signing Robertson and Harley

The issue with the Stars is that at the end of the last playoff run it was deemed that their RD depth was weak and that weakness was exposed in the playoffs.

Pulock and Mayfield may be cheap to acquire... and if we completely ignore their Full NTC for a second, the question then becomes "does that solve the problem the Stars are trying to fix in acquiring a strong RD?". Mayfield definitely does not push the needle, but does Pulock?

Arguably, Pulock is better than Ceci but there is no way the Stars can get Pulock to fit into their cap structure right now. His cap hit is $6.15M and the Stars only have $1.955M in cap space to sign 2 players. Andersson is not only the better player than Pulock but his contract can actually fit with retention and a minor cap dump... but it's gonna cost!!

Vegas also only has $1.186M in cap space and needs to add 2 players to their roster (that is with Pietrangelo off the books).

You simply cannot add guys like Pulock, Josi, Karlsson, etc into these cap structures without moving out significant cap out.

[Sandman]

I think you’re both right- Andersson is the better, younger player, but the gulf between him and Pulock isn’t as wide as is being portrayed IMO. Pulock’s main issue is injuries, but when he’s on the ice, he’s a well-rounded two-way contributor who can play in all situations- there’s a reason he was drafted in the middle of the first-round. I think comparing him to Ceci, and saying that he’s one of the worst contracts in the league is a bit hyperbolic IMO.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Explain to me what you see that makes Ras so much better than Pulock? Key dman on a team that went to the conference finals 2 years in a row. Puts up 25-35 points a year and is a very good defensive dman.

Ras is going to get at least a mil per year more and a contract that ends when he is 38 vs Pulock's contract that ends when he is 35.

oIf the Flames want 1sts and blue chip prospects and NYI wants B level prospect and 2nds, I'm taking Pulock as I believe he is every bit a good as Ras.

Pulock has put up 25 points once in the past 5 seasons, he has put up 35 points or more in 2 seasons, the last time being 6 years ago. Andersson has put up 31-50 points in each of the last 4 seasons. Comparing the two as anywhere near the same is just silly. It is kinda like comparing a 30 point center and a 65 point center. They both play the same position, that is where the comparison ends.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I think you’re both right- Andersson is the better, younger player, but the gulf between him and Pulock isn’t as wide as is being portrayed IMO. Pulock’s main issue is injuries, but when he’s on the ice, he’s a well-rounded two-way contributor who can play in all situations- there’s a reason he was drafted in the middle of the first-round. I think comparing him to Ceci, and saying that he’s one of the worst contracts in the league is a bit hyperbolic IMO.

My point in comparing Pulock and Ceci is because we were talking about the Stars and how Pulock may be a good or better option instead of Andersson. Ceci was the big trade deadline acquisition the Stars made to address their RD depth issue and... I don't feel it was successful.

Ceci and Pulock are pretty good for the comparison.
- Both were 15OA draft picks (2012 and 2013).
- Pulock plays ~21-22 minutes while Ceci plays ~20-21.
- Pulock puts up more points (0.38 pts/g v 0.27) but Pulocks numbers are boosted by his first 3 seasons. In the last 5 seasons their points numbers are really close
- Ceci has managed to play 310 more games

I think the gap between those players is smaller than the gap between Pulock and Andersson and, ultimately, I am not sure Pulock would be a significantly bigger difference maker than Ceci.

But the biggest problem in trying to compare Pulock and Andersson is the cap hit. Andersson has a huge advantage this year and teams have a chance to adjust their cap situations to fit his next contract.

[jlh2640]

I’m under the opinion that Conroy sells him to the highest bidder trade deadline. Use him and then leverage him against teams who aren’t on his modified no trade.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

I’m under the opinion that Conroy sells him to the highest bidder trade deadline. Use him and then leverage him against teams who aren’t on his modified no trade.

And if the Flames are in the middle of a playoff race, or actually in a playoff spot?

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

And if the Flames are in the middle of a playoff race, or actually in a playoff spot?

Then it better be one hell of a package coming back for Ras.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

And if the Flames are in the middle of a playoff race, or actually in a playoff spot?

They still sell.

Or sign him closer to their offer.

He doesn't walk.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

And if the Flames are in the middle of a playoff race, or actually in a playoff spot?

Sell regardless, this team doesn’t have the talent for a long push in the playoffs and Ras won’t be around the following season. Easy choice.

[Niemo]

I don't understand how the deadline price would be much higher than the current price and what that difference is.