Warning to river rafters this weekend

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by lifer

I have a question for people who have swam in the Bow. Did you find it difficult? I'm an above average swimmer, but I'm not great. When I go rafting with my buddies I'm the guy who gets out of the rafts to swim and to pull the rafts to shore. I've never felt like I was in any danger. There are very few places were I couldn't touch the ground, the current isn't that fast and the water isn't even cold. That makes me giggle at this type of sensationalism from the article.

"You’ve got to be wearing a life jacket — if you hit an obstruction on the Bow, unless you’re an Olympic swimmer, you’re done.” - city spokesman Bill Bruce.

It is a little bit of a hyperbole, but it can happen. Look at the guy who attempted to rescue a person last week. He was an experienced swimmer and he ended up needing rescue himself. Granted part of that was the panic of the first recuee making the situation worse.

I found a chart here: chart Basically it says that in 5 degree celcius water (40 F) the time to "Exhaustion or Unconsciousness" is about 30 minutes- and at that temp they give a range of 15-60 minutes. So if you are in top shape and weigh 160 pounds- your time is going to be less than me at 230 pounds. And that is the time to unconsciousness- you can also become weaker as time goes by.

Also if you are in waist deep water, you are likely fine. And odds are where you land the boat normally the water is that shallow, so 5 minutes of pulling the boat has no effect. But end up in the middle of the water, waste a few minutes trying to catch up to your boat, then try to get to shore, you may not make it. And if you swallow a lung full of water it is much easier to force that water out of you aren't relying on your swimming ablility to keep you afloat. That, and as anybody who scuba dives will tell you- your lungs are incredibly huge ballasts keeping you afloat. Fill them half way with water, and you could also be done.

You are right though; it is a bit of an exageration and most times you will be OK. But the reason for safety equipment of any kind isn't to guard against what will happen most of the time; it's to save you against those rare occasions where a couple of things go wrong.

[lifer]

Originally Posted by ken0042

It is a little bit of a hyperbole, but it can happen. Look at the guy who attempted to rescue a person last week. He was an experienced swimmer and he ended up needing rescue himself. Granted part of that was the panic of the first recuee making the situation worse.

I found a chart here: chart Basically it says that in 5 degree celcius water (40 F) the time to "Exhaustion or Unconsciousness" is about 30 minutes- and at that temp they give a range of 15-60 minutes. So if you are in top shape and weigh 160 pounds- your time is going to be less than me at 230 pounds. And that is the time to unconsciousness- you can also become weaker as time goes by.

Also if you are in waist deep water, you are likely fine. And odds are where you land the boat normally the water is that shallow, so 5 minutes of pulling the boat has no effect. But end up in the middle of the water, waste a few minutes trying to catch up to your boat, then try to get to shore, you may not make it. And if you swallow a lung full of water it is much easier to force that water out of you aren't relying on your swimming ablility to keep you afloat. That, and as anybody who scuba dives will tell you- your lungs are incredibly huge ballasts keeping you afloat. Fill them half way with water, and you could also be done.

You are right though; it is a bit of an exageration and most times you will be OK. But the reason for safety equipment of any kind isn't to guard against what will happen most of the time; it's to save you against those rare occasions where a couple of things go wrong.

I just got back to Calgary after a couple months away a couple days ago, so I'm not familiar with what happened last week. The only incident that I remember was the drowning at the wier earlier.
That chart is interesting. I assume that the temperature of the Bow is about the 5 degrees that you used as an example? That chart was suprising to me in any case. I've spent hours on end in water during the summer and have never considered the threat of hypothermia, but that was in a relatively warm lake, and I didn't take the temp of the water.

I guess the biggest part of my mentality that the Bow isn't dangerous comes from where I grew up. I'm from Trail BC. The Columbia River is a huge river and it flows through there at a pretty fast rate. I swam in there every day of summer for 10 years. I guess that's what I use as a reference point. I have never felt in danger on the Bow. I realize that it obviously is dangerous, otherwise people wouldnt need to be rescued from it so frequently, but people are allowed on other bodies of water that are far more dangerous and it is sufficient just to have a life jacket with them. That's what I wish the law was here. It is much more comfortable floating in a raft or swimming without having a life jacket on.

But I guess that like many other laws, this one is just to protect people from themselves. It would be nice if we could count on people to take care of themselves and behave within their personal limitations. But we all know that is impossible for some...especially when alcohol is involved.

[enthused]

I was just rafting down the Elbow, and there are bylaw officers at Stanley Park handing out tickets. Just wanted to give everyone who's planning on going down there a heads up... put on a lifejacket and stash the alcohol when you go by there. We started at Sandy Beach though and there was no problems until Stanley Park.

[Harbourmouth]

The Calgary Police Force is a joke in general. I fully understand ticketing people on the Bow, but the Elbow? Give me a break. They should better use their time tracking down the murders who went on a stabbing spree a few weeks ago, or ticketing these goddamn bike couriers that run me down every day while i'm going to work to pay taxes that pay their salary.

[Otto-matic]

Originally Posted by Harbourmouth

The Calgary Police Force is a joke in general. I fully understand ticketing people on the Bow, but the Elbow? Give me a break. They should better use their time tracking down the murders who went on a stabbing spree a few weeks ago, or ticketing these goddamn bike couriers that run me down every day while i'm going to work to pay taxes that pay their salary.

This is way out of line.
The Calgary Police force has to do their job. I dont see why they are a joke, They are some of the bravest men and women in our city along with the fire dept and ems.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Harbourmouth

The Calgary Police Force is a joke in general. I fully understand ticketing people on the Bow, but the Elbow? Give me a break. They should better use their time tracking down the murders who went on a stabbing spree a few weeks ago, or ticketing these goddamn bike couriers that run me down every day while i'm going to work to pay taxes that pay their salary.

Seriously, have you ever applied for Chief of Police? Because clearly you have it all figured out.

[Burninator]

Well pretty much everyone in this thread is a...



Went rafting on Saturday. Bylaw officers on the bank of Stanley park pulling over rafters. From what I gathered the major offenses are rafting without a life jacket, open alcohol, and tying rafts together. My group bought life jackets before hand. I bought mine from Canadian Tire for $25 and some bought theirs for $20 at Walmart. And we simply put them on just before Stanley Park and took them off shortly after. We also pre-mixed our booze into powerade bottles and left the beer cans behind. Other people got out of the river before the park, walked around and got back in. I also thought there was an increase in littering because people who would normally take their empties with them, threw them on the bank because they didn't want to get caught with them by the bylaw officers. Nice work City.

Don't really get why people are talking about Bow river conditions and temperatures. I didn't think anyone was complaining about that enforcement. If drowning on the Elbow is large concern of yours I am going to make too assumptions. 1. You are not water savvy at any level and should probably stay away from large puddles. 2. You have not been on the Elbow river. I am guessing my second assumption is the most likely of the two scenarios.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Burninator

If drowning on the Elbow is large concern of yours I am going to make too assumptions. 1. You are not water savvy at any level and should probably stay away from large puddles. 2. You have not been on the Elbow river. I am guessing my second assumption is the most likely of the two scenarios.

Then I put the same questions to you I posed earlier:

Have you never seen the Elbow river to be moving fast or having high flow? I have seen it:

- After severe thunderstorms
- During spring run off.
- At various points in the river. For example I wouldn't want to be in the water near Elbow Falls without a life jacket.

How would you suggest that at those different times or places we notify people that that section of the river or that particular flow level now requires a life jacket?

What happens when the Elbow river rafter enters the Bow? It could happen by planning, lack of planning, or somebody not being familliar with the water way.

They are making the law nice and simple; or KISS. (Keep It Simple, Stupid.) Wear a life jacket on any waterway. Same as the seatbelt law is enforceable on any street or alley.

Any of the arguements you are making could also be made regarding seatbelts. ie- that it hasn't happened to you, the route you are taking is safer, etc.

I do agree that it may seem a little silly to have a life jacket on while rafting down the Elbow. It is shallow, slow moving, and the danger level is low. But these laws are there to make it easy for people to follow- wear a life jacket on all waterways.

[flamingchina]

S, while I was rafting down the elbow this weekend (wearing a life jacket)
I was in the water for much if it, swimming or walking, etc.
While I was doing so, there were also people on the banks, swimming and walking in the water.

So, the question is, are they supposed to be wearing life jackets as well?
Where was the difference between us?

[Wookie]

Originally Posted by flamingchina

So, the question is, are they supposed to be wearing life jackets as well?
Where was the difference between us?

While I'm in agreement with life jacket rule - and think it's perfectly fine!

I was training in a lake the other day - swimming, goggles and hat on when a boat with a motor and a community official came over to someone on a boat close to me and made them put on a life jacket. Whereas there is me, plugging away on meter number 1,654 tired with no jacket on in the middle of the lake... haha..

Seems a little odd

[Mr. Ski]

So here's a bit of a long, crazy rafting story to add to the mix :

My wife and I rafted the lower Bow today from Cushing Bridge/Blackfoot Trail (just below the wier, down to McKinnon Flats (about 35km south-east of the city limits). We've got a good white-water capable raft and have been rafting for years. We've seen lots of sights, but nothing like tonight.

At about 9:00pm (and about an hour before the end of today's trip) we came upon a 'small walmart style' raft with four people in it -- mom, two adult sons in their late 20's and one of their girlfriends (with not a single life jacket to be seen). They were going a fair bit slower as out of the main current, weren't rowing or paddling, and frankly looked a bit lost. As we neared, they asked us if cell coverage was available there. We said "no, we're well out of range here". They then asked to catch a ride back to Calgary with us; which we couldn't do, as were were being met by my parents who only have a small vehicle -- just barely enough room for all of us and the gear. What we did offer was to get them up to highway 22x where they would be back in range and could call for a ride on their cell. They said thank-you and all seemed well.

We continued on, paddling gently as we had been the whole trip and got about 20 feet ahead of them within a couple of minutes. The girlfriend on their boat suggested to the rest that they should paddle too to keep up. A few snippy comments went back and forth and then all hell broke loose. The mom started cursing and berating the girl and her sons "I ****in' hate you all; I took you out for fun, and for three hours all you do is ***** **** **** and **** **** ****, if you don't like it get the **** out of my boat, etc. This went on back and forth for a good 15 min!!, as my wife and I kept looking at each other in shear amazement. We agreed to keep moving ahead to try and get out of earshot at the very least...

As we got to about 200 feet ahead it finally got really stupid. No idea exactly what got said that hadn't already, but the mom finally looses it completely -- leaping accross the raft, she appears to hit the girl hard her with a paddle which goes flying, then starts throwing punches and screaming even louder, pulling her hair, trying to dump her in the water and such. The guys were now yelling too, in the mix trying to separate them; and not doing a good job of it. By now, it's close to 10:00, getting dark, these guys had no idea exactly where they were, and they're trying to kill each other (possibly litrerally)...

Finally out of earshot it seemed, we got to our take-out about another 15 min later, pulled in, told the story to my parents, and began to pack up.

We weren't very eager to see them again at this point, but figured we'd honour our word to get at least *one* of them to the main road... but... we never did see them in the 25 min it took us to collapse and load everything in. Got finished and waited another 20-25 min and no sign of them.

I seriously wonder what happened to them as it was now very dark, well after 11:00, we were a long way from town and were the only other one's out there... I can only guess they must have pulled in somewhere ahead of us. Hope cooler heads prevailed...

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

This is way out of line.
The Calgary Police force has to do their job. I dont see why they are a joke, They are some of the bravest men and women in our city along with the fire dept and ems.

Apparently the police are a joke becuase they are making idiots obey the law.

Those inconsiderate jerks!

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I also thought there was an increase in littering because people who would normally take their empties with them, threw them on the bank because they didn't want to get caught with them by the bylaw officers. Nice work City.

This is the cities fault why?

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Then I put the same questions to you I posed earlier:

Have you never seen the Elbow river to be moving fast or having high flow? I have seen it:

- After severe thunderstorms
- During spring run off.
- At various points in the river. For example I wouldn't want to be in the water near Elbow Falls without a life jacket.

How would you suggest that at those different times or places we notify people that that section of the river or that particular flow level now requires a life jacket?

What happens when the Elbow river rafter enters the Bow? It could happen by planning, lack of planning, or somebody not being familliar with the water way.

The Elbow is definitely not ideal at all times. But the majority of the rafting that happens on the river without life jackets is done during the calm times. Most people go on the river to relax, not to fight the rapids or constantly crash into the banks. But there is probably a small group that is risking the river when they shouldn't be. Elbow Falls isn't really in the scope of this topic because it is not within the city enforcement. The majority of the rafting that the city seems to be concerned about is between Sandy beach and around the 4th street bridge.

They are making the law nice and simple; or KISS. (Keep It Simple, Stupid.) Wear a life jacket on any waterway. Same as the seatbelt law is enforceable on any street or alley.

Any of the arguements you are making could also be made regarding seatbelts. ie- that it hasn't happened to you, the route you are taking is safer, etc.

I do agree that it may seem a little silly to have a life jacket on while rafting down the Elbow. It is shallow, slow moving, and the danger level is low. But these laws are there to make it easy for people to follow- wear a life jacket on all waterways.

I feel as though the city is over enforcing this bylaw, but not by choice. I think they are patrolling the Elbow for two reasons. One of them being becuase of the recent drownings on the Bow river. They have had to step up safety measures because that river needs it, and to save face they also have to do it on the Elbow river. The other reason is because the city bends over backwards for those communities in the area. The folk around the river are tired of the party atmosphere that is developing on the river. So the city has another reason to patrol the area.

I totally understand the mentality of enforcing the same rules to all waterways. But it doesn't mean I have to like it, or agree with it. It was a really bizarre sight floating past the bylaw officers at Stanley park on Saturday. There rafters being called into shore and given warnings or tickets because they didn't have life jackets. Yet people are swimming right beside the rafts and kids are playing without life jackets in the same water conditions. It was weird seeing the enforcement of people in an inflatable raft, yet everyone else was fine despite being in the same water. Anyways, we seem to be fully entrenched in our standpoints, so we can leave it here or keep discussing, doesn't matter to me.

[mykalberta]

Anyone who dies on the Bow from rafting, swimming, *surfing* has no one to blame but themselves - people have to learn to deal with the consequences of their actions and I dont feel sorry for them in the least. I do feel for their parents and significant others/children but not them.

MYK

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

This is the cities fault why?

In essence they created more littering because people didn't want to get tickets because of their empties, where as before hand they wouldn't have littered. It is a convoluted way of looking at, but you didn't quote my whole post where I also pointed people were merely walking around the enforcement point, which negated the enforcement to a degree.

[Burninator]

Does anyone have a better understanding of the life jacket bylaws here in town? When boating on a lake I believe you just have to have a life jacket on board for each person. They don't have to wearing one at all times. Whereas on a seadoo life jackets are required all the time. What is it for the city here? Do we have to wear them or merely have them on board?

[J pold]

I don’t understand what the appeal is in just rafting, when I raft the purpose is to fish or to go over white water, but sit in a dingy and float the river just seem weak minded to me

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by J pold

I don’t understand what the appeal is in just rafting, when I raft the purpose is to fish or to go over white water, but sit in a dingy and float the river just seem weak minded to me

If you don't like it that's fine, but there is little need to insult people who enjoy it. Next time keep it to yourself.

[ken0042]

^^ Agreed.

No, it isn't for everybody. And if you don't think you'll like it, then don't try it.

For me it is a way to cool off and enjoy the nice weather. You get to see parts of the city that you wouldn't normally see; and the setting is very park-like. Yesterday I spent 2 hours sitting in front of the A/C watching TV; while Burninator went for a trip down the river. I'd say he had the better afternoon.