Ongoing General Automotive Thread 2.0

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Of course oil's are a little better, nobody is doubting that. I have used synthetic oil in a lot of cars for a long time but how much better are they really compared to ones 10-15 years ago of the same brand/viscosity?

If we take 4 cylinder and V6 Honda's and Toyota's of which there are tens of millions of them around. A lot of them called for conventional or synthetic oil. 10W30, 5W30, 5W20 and called for approx 6k km's oil change intervals under what the majority of people would be severe conditions.

Fast forward to more modern Honda/Toyota cars with minor modifications to their engines as the engine family's are not radically different. Now all of a sudden it's a thinner oil viscosity and a 16k oil change interval. There have been some changes in oil/engine tolerances for sure but is it 250-300+ % ?

Anyhow people are free to maintain their cars as they see fit.

People should maintain their cars according to the recommendations of the people that know how the cars were designed.

Hate to say, but you’re talking out of your arse a bit. A 2010 (15+ years old) V6 Toyota 4Runner has a 16k/12 month oil change interval. This isn’t a new thing and certainly hasn’t changed in the last 15 years (other than more vehicle being designed for this I guess?). You’re free to look up the manual online. Toyota makes them available.

As far as Special Driving Conditions, I don’t think most people spend the majority of their time driving in them (as that is what they refer to). Those were 5k/6 months… and those are still 5k/6 months today.

Look up 2015, 2020, and 2025 while you’re at it. It hasn’t changed. And in both cases, it’s whichever comes first (months or km).

One of the best resale value vehicles on the road, btw.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People should maintain their cars according to the recommendations of the people that know how the cars were designed.

There's more nuance to it than that.

Using 0w20 oil everywhere was absolutely driven by both technology advancements in engine manufacturing tolerances that make it possible, but also by strict environmental regulations on fuel economy.

It's a very valid point that keeping a car running for 20 years is better for the environment, despite some extra fuel consumption using more durable oils.

When auto manufacturers cite "lifetime fluids" it is not optimizing for keeping a vehicle on the road for 20 years, as that is a small fraction of the population willing to dump money into an old car to keep it running.

I absolutely ignore the "lifetime fluid" maintenance claims, and anyone that has gotten an analysis done of transmission fluid or differential oil has proved that these should be replaced at some point, regardless of the manufacturer's claims.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

There's more nuance to it than that.

Using 0w20 oil everywhere was absolutely driven by both technology advancements in engine manufacturing tolerances that make it possible, but also by strict environmental regulations on fuel economy.

It's a very valid point that keeping a car running for 20 years is better for the environment, despite some extra fuel consumption using more durable oils.

When auto manufacturers cite "lifetime fluids" it is not optimizing for keeping a vehicle on the road for 20 years, as that is a small fraction of the population willing to dump money into an old car to keep it running.

I absolutely ignore the "lifetime fluid" maintenance claims, and anyone that has gotten an analysis done of transmission fluid or differential oil has proved that these should be replaced at some point, regardless of the manufacturer's claims.

Lifetime just means extended time. My current vehicle uses “lifetime” transmission fluid and yet changing the transmission fluid is still part of the maintenance schedule.

EDIT: and not to say you’re wrong, by “people who know how the vehicle was designed” that includes mechanics actually experienced in those vehicles who have seen the results of 1000s more stress tests than anyone. I doesn’t, however, include randoms who think oil change intervals are a conspiracy.

[TorqueDog]

"Lifetime" is a marketing myth, helped along by 'sealed' transmissions that lack a trans fluid dipstick under the hood. ZF have their own recommendations; 50,000 miles for heavier service, 70,000-80,000 miles for regular service. Any automatic transmission vehicle I buy, I do the transmission fluid, the diffs, and transfer case (if applicable) if the vehicle odometer is >80,000 KM.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People should maintain their cars according to the recommendations of the people that know how the cars were designed.

The problem is when such guidance and changes are not motivated by longevity but by money.

The 0W20 oil example from Mr. Bumface is the best example of this. In the real world, the fuel economy difference between running a 0W20 versus a 5W20 is pretty minimal if you'd even notice it, but over hundreds of thousands of vehicles produced every year, a manufacturer saves a lot of money due to Corporate Average Fuel Economy requirements. The AJ133S V8 was introduced with a recommended oil weight of 5W20; it changed to 0W20 for CAFE reasons.

Just because a manufacturer built the vehicle doesn't mean they made all the right decisions for that vehicle. Decisions are made and components are built to a price (my stock clutch, for example). When they make the wrong call, we get recalls ... or just really inconsistent service life of wearable parts.

[PepsiFree]

Totally, again, you don’t need to have designed the vehicle to know how the vehicle was designed. But you do have to know something about it, like the fact that it’s had the same maintenance schedule for 15 years.

People definitely should not just maintain vehicles however they see fit.

[TorqueDog]

Fair, although the worst thing you're likely going to do by servicing a vehicle earlier than recommended is burn money.

A lot of what curves2000 is saying is not entirely out to lunch in my view, having worked in the industry once upon a time.

Lower cost of ownership is one reason for extending service intervals, but also consider for higher-end brands that they often include maintenance packages on all their new vehicles. It's a lot cheaper to tell your customer you'll do their maintenance free of charge if you've extended the service interval to be maybe once a year, and the customer thinks "this is awesome, I barely have to take this thing in for maintenance!", and by the time the extending of the maintenance schedule actually has implications for good mechanical operation of the vehicle, the thing is out of warranty and on its third or fourth owner.

Plenty... PLEEEENTY of decisions in the automotive industry are made in service of maximizing profit even if it may yield a higher failure on vehicles in the field. It's just a matter of nailing the calculation to ensure that those failure rates don't get too high until the manufacturer can wipe their hands of the financial liability for the repairs.

[Fuzz]

Our Impreza with CVT doesn't have a dip stick, but my mechanic checked and noted it was getting dirty at about 70,000km. Had the fluid changed, no big deal. I think the manual even recommends checking at 50k. I know they aren't all like that from all manufacturers, but we don't drive that hard, so if you have a Subaru CVT you may want to get it checked at your next oil change.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People should maintain their cars according to the recommendations of the people that know how the cars were designed.

Hate to say, but you’re talking out of your arse a bit. A 2010 (15+ years old) V6 Toyota 4Runner has a 16k/12 month oil change interval. This isn’t a new thing and certainly hasn’t changed in the last 15 years (other than more vehicle being designed for this I guess?). You’re free to look up the manual online. Toyota makes them available.

As far as Special Driving Conditions, I don’t think most people spend the majority of their time driving in them (as that is what they refer to). Those were 5k/6 months… and those are still 5k/6 months today.

Look up 2015, 2020, and 2025 while you’re at it. It hasn’t changed. And in both cases, it’s whichever comes first (months or km).

One of the best resale value vehicles on the road, btw.

In case I am totally out to lunch, your 2010 Toyota 4 Runner goes by the old maintenance schedule of every 8000 km's using the higher viscosity oils. The same goes for an 09 Toyota RAV 4 I have with a 2.5 L 4 cylinder.


https://www.toyota.ca/en/owners/main...RA&type=milage

The 2025 RAV 4 I have calls for a 0-W16 weight oil and 16k km's between oil changes. The old 5W30/20 weight for much older Toyota's means it's almost half as thin and needs to be changed twice as long? How much possible innovation has occurred for 4 cylinder Toyota's on an ICE engine from a lubrication and cooling perspective?

My basic, logical method of car maintenance is to just do a little more on the important things. Use quality oil, use factory filters since you really don't save money vs aftermarket. Change your fluids frequently within reason.

Decisions in the car business lately are geared towards making more money for dealerships and the automakers and that is beyond evident by virtually everything that is being done these days. Shut down competitive shops slowly and design things requiring more and more proprietary parts/service for more dollars.

It's not like this situation is unprecedent in other places too with executives overriding engineers. Boeing airplanes and their systems are a direct result of this as well and caused crashes and other concerns. If your asking me if 16-25 k oil changes intervals are in the best interest of the owner, I would respectfully say I highly doubt it and it's better to change your oil a little more regularly if you want your car to last a longer time. If you don't drive a lot or keep cars longer, than it doesn't matter and let someone else deal with the repercussions.

[cam_wmh]

Has anyone here sent their oil to a lab before? Blackstone? Napa?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by curves2000

In case I am totally out to lunch, your 2010 Toyota 4 Runner goes by the old maintenance schedule of every 8000 km's using the higher viscosity oils. The same goes for an 09 Toyota RAV 4 I have with a 2.5 L 4 cylinder.


https://www.toyota.ca/en/owners/main...RA&type=milage

The 2025 RAV 4 I have calls for a 0-W16 weight oil and 16k km's between oil changes. The old 5W30/20 weight for much older Toyota's means it's almost half as thin and needs to be changed twice as long? How much possible innovation has occurred for 4 cylinder Toyota's on an ICE engine from a lubrication and cooling perspective?

Here’s the original maintenance manual:

5,000 miles or 6 months
- Check installation of driver’s floor mat
- Inspect and adjust all fluid levels
- Rotate tires
- Visually inspect brake linings/drums andbrake pads/discs

10,000 miles or 12 months
- Check installation of driver’s floor mat
- Inspect and adjust all fluid levels
- Replace engine oil and oil filter
- Rotate tires
- Visually inspect brake linings/drums and brake pads/discs

https://assets.sia.toyota.com/public...AkajYwJGwwJGgw

Rest easy fella. It’s not new within the last 15 years or some plot. Called for 0w20 back then, calls for the same now.

This is for the 6 cylinder.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Here’s the original maintenance manual:


https://assets.sia.toyota.com/public...AkajYwJGwwJGgw

Rest easy fella. It’s not new within the last 15 years or some plot. Called for 0w20 back then, calls for the same now.

This is for the 6 cylinder.

Maybe we are splitting hairs but Toyota Canada in the link I provided now says 8000 km's. Who knows? Maybe it was a change or maybe that is Canada. I don't own a 4Runner although they are great.

My 09 Toyota calls for for 8000 km's as well.

Anyhow we've beaten this topic to death. Cheers

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Maybe we are splitting hairs but Toyota Canada in the link I provided now says 8000 km's. Who knows? Maybe it was a change or maybe that is Canada. I don't own a 4Runner although they are great.

My 09 Toyota calls for for 8000 km's as well.

Anyhow we've beaten this topic to death. Cheers

If you click over it shows it on the 16k as well, so my guess is that they’re combining the two models. Back then they had a 4 cylinder which had a different (shorter) schedule, same as your 09 4 cylinder. The 6 cylinder gen 5 has had the same schedule since it came out.

The 2013 Rav 4 is when they switched to the longer intervals. So it’s been that way for a bit over a decade already.

[TorqueDog]

The 2010 4Runner got a dual-VVTi version of the 1GR-FE V6 engine. Per Toyota, that engine calls for 0W20 versus the 5W30 that the previous single-VVTi version of that engine used, so the confusion is understandable.