Barn Burner: The Boys are Back!! (Boomer, Pinder & Warrener)

[memphusk]

Call me old school but I like fighting in the game. The roar of the crowd when guys go toe to toe is amazing also. The brawl against Anaheim. Lowry flicking the puck over the glass to get Berube out of the box.The line brawl against Vancouver was fantastic. The last true power forward we will ever see wore the flaming C. Iginla was an absolute beast. Regehr punishing guys. What a time to be a hockey fan in those days.

[Jiri Hrdina]

How about the part when ex fighters kill themsleves because their brains are f’d?
I get enjoying the in game part but I don’t see how people can look past what happens down the road

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How about the part when ex fighters kill themsleves because their brains are f’d?
I get enjoying the in game part but I don’t see how people can look past what happens down the road

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?

To my mind, there's a big difference between having fights in games and having fighting in the game. The latter implies that it's accepted as part of the competition, and we really can't get away with that anymore. The former, to me at least, means that it's a high-tempo contact sport and tempers are bound to boil over sometimes, even to the point of throwing punches. Sitting in a box for five minutes is not a sufficient punishment to prevent players from doing it deliberately. I think a suspension is appropriate for any player who tries to drag an unwilling opponent into a fight.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How about the part when ex fighters kill themsleves because their brains are f’d?
I get enjoying the in game part but I don’t see how people can look past what happens down the road

Even if their brains aren't badly damaged, it probably doesn't sit well on your conscience beating people up. For some guys, maybe it doesn't bother them, but I bet a lot of them feel some guilt and shame after looking back.

One of the things McGrattan mentioned was that it became difficult because you get to know the guys you fight. When you're young, you don't think too much about the person behind the uniform, but when you get older, you realize that they are dads, husbands, and sons just like you. And there you are beating them up for their loved ones to watch with concern. Maybe I am just a wuss, but I was in one fight in my life when I was 14 that was just a peer pressure thing and I still think back about it to this day and feel bad about hurting that kid. It's one of those things that I'll randomly reflect on right when I am about to fall asleep and then it keeps up. The microsoft paper clip in my brain comes out and decides it's time to review my mistakes in life. If I did that a lot in my life, I'd probably be really depressed.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How about the part when ex fighters kill themsleves because their brains are f’d?
I get enjoying the in game part but I don’t see how people can look past what happens down the road

How many fighters actually killed themselves because of CTE? 2,3? and did they get GTE from punches or just the massive amount of hits along the boards or on the ice since they were kids?

Should we ban all contact sports because of the remote possibility of developing a brain disorder?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

How many fighters actually killed themselves because of CTE? 2,3? and did they get GTE from punches or just the massive amount of hits along the boards or on the ice since they were kids?

Should we ban all contact sports because of the remote possibility of developing a brain disorder?

Well for starters we have:
Chris Simon (confirmed CTE)
Derek Boogard (confirmed CTE)
Bob Probert (confirmed CTE) - note he died of a heart attack not suicide
Steve Montador (confirmed CTE) - also died of heart failure
Rick Rypien (confirmed CTE)
Wade Belak (confirmed CTE)

There may be others, but that's the recent list. Is that not enough? And is not the fact that common to all of them was that they got into a light fights enough to suggest it at least was a contributing factor.

Personally I think hitting does need to evolve in the NHL so that it is more about getting the puck back, and anything more than that isn't allowed. But I also know that has severe implications for the game. So let's set that aside.

The NHL can EASILY remove fighting without impacting the game. They should take reasonable and logical steps to remove something that contributes to concussions and CTE, but will not impact the game in a material way.

Your argument is akin to someone saying "what? We are going make players where helmets? What's next - having them run around the ice wearing bubble wrap".

Reasonable steps don't have to lead to unreasonable ones.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

How many fighters actually killed themselves because of CTE? 2,3? and did they get GTE from punches or just the massive amount of hits along the boards or on the ice since they were kids?

Should we ban all contact sports because of the remote possibility of developing a brain disorder?

I’m not really sure there’s a good/acceptable number of players who killed themselves to justify keeping a penalized sideshow in the game. Saying “just 2 or 3” is kind of terrible and pointless.

EDIT: I also have no idea why people always have to make these giant leaps that nobody is asking for. Banning fighting which is already a penalty and already increasingly rare is not remotely similar to banning all contact sports.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well major junior isn’t exactly what I’d call developmental leagues for kids where youth should be taught that fighting isn’t acceptable through withholding of praise.

It’s already elite hockey at that point and many of the players are adults. If you don’t want fighting in the WHL, no need to coach them out of it through negative feedback. Just ban it like any other sport.

I've seen some legit fights in the AJHL. I would imagine some of the lower leagues like Junior B leagues also, but I admittedly never watch that.

How is major junior not development??

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I've seen some legit fights in the AJHL. I would imagine some of the lower leagues like Junior B leagues also, but I admittedly never watch that.

How is major junior not development??

Junior B used to be a glorified boxing match. These days its for kids with skill who don't like to workout or eat well.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m not really sure there’s a good/acceptable number of players who killed themselves to justify keeping a penalized sideshow in the game. Saying “just 2 or 3” is kind of terrible and pointless.

EDIT: I also have no idea why people always have to make these giant leaps that nobody is asking for. Banning fighting which is already a penalty and already increasingly rare is not remotely similar to banning all contact sports.

But by the same logic, why be all up in arms about fighting if 1. it's already a penalty and 2. it is increasingly rare.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

But by the same logic, why be all up in arms about fighting if 1. it's already a penalty and 2. it is increasingly rare.

Because the final step should be taken to ban it altogether. The way you do that is by making the consequences severe enough that it all but vanishes.
If you have two willing combatants they are kicked out of the game, and suspended for the next game. If someone fights gain, that's 3 games. And so on.
The only exception would be when someone is dragged into a fight by someone else.
Just get rid of it.

[Jiri Hrdina]

A little more info.
As best as I can source, fighting majors have fallen from 0.64 per game in 2000 to 0.26. But that decline has flattened out in recent years. It's not falling further.
More steps are required to fully remove from the game.
If we care about humans, we should also care about the guys who are having their faces regularly pounded.
Mathieu Olivier had 15 fights last year.
Brandon Duhaime and Mark Kastelic had 10 each.
Pat Maroon and Marcus Foligno had 9 each.

That's still too much for a human to be taking.
The per game averages mask this element, because the aggregate numbers don't look too bad: 1 fight every 8 games.

But there are still guys doing this way too much.

[Saqe]

CTE wasn't known before but the effects are now, and players who are actually doing the fighting haven't demanded it to be removed from the game. I'm not sure how people outside the game commenting on it should be the ones having a say on the issue. If it comes from the players, different story.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Saqe

CTE wasn't known before but the effects are now, and players who are actually doing the fighting haven't demanded it to be removed from the game. I'm not sure how people outside the game commenting on it should be the ones having a say on the issue. If it comes from the players, different story.

Because players are TERRIBLE at making decisions about their own safety.
If you want a true view, talk to players who are suffering with CTE now and ask them if they wish they had done something different.
Well except those that are dead.
You could ask their families.

This is not a decision that should be in the hands of the players. They will not protect themselves.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Because players are TERRIBLE at making decisions about their own safety.
If you want a true view, talk to players who are suffering with CTE now and ask them if they wish they had done something different.
Well except those that are dead.
You could ask their families.

This is not a decision that should be in the hands of the players. They will not protect themselves.

Oh and you have the right answer how people should live their lives? That seems high and mighty. I assume you would ban boxing and MMA all together which are all about causing brain damage.

[Ba'alzamon]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Because players are TERRIBLE at making decisions about their own safety.
If you want a true view, talk to players who are suffering with CTE now and ask them if they wish they had done something different.
Well except those that are dead.
You could ask their families.

This is not a decision that should be in the hands of the players. They will not protect themselves.

There's also the fact that this current discussion was literally spurred by an interview with Brian McGrattan, a well-known pugilist, who himself was saying that fighting should be banned.

So, to Saqe's question: If it comes from the players, different story.

Do former players count?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Oh and you have the right answer how people should live their lives? That seems high and mighty. I assume you would ban boxing and MMA all together which are all about causing brain damage.

Caring about other humans is high and mighty?
Ok.
I'm discussing the issue and providing facts. I guess you are left with nothing about attacks.

I don't know enough about MMA and boxing and incidents of CTA amongst retired athletes in those sports to offer an informed view. I don't follow those sports at all.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Ba'alzamon

There's also the fact that this current discussion was literally spurred by an interview with Brian McGrattan, a well-known pugilist, who himself was saying that fighting should be banned.

So, to Saqe's question: If it comes from the players, different story.

Do former players count?

Does he have skin in the game? I don't think so. Why should he get a say now after himself making a career out of it.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Caring about other humans is high and mighty?
Ok.
I'm discussing the issue and providing facts. I guess you are left with nothing about attacks.

I don't know enough about MMA and boxing and incidents of CTA amongst retired athletes in those sports to offer an informed view. I don't follow those sports at all.

You can care about other humans, that's fine. Telling them how to live their lives is another thing.

[Knut]

My thoughts on this have certainly shifted over the years. 5-6 years ago I would have said no way to eliminating fighting but it seems inevitable and needed now. It will likely slowly go away as fighting is removed from the lower levels.

I remember trying out for a Junior B team and the Coach told everyone that if they didn’t get a fight in tryouts they are not making the team. That seems insane in retrospect. This was not a league where players go on to make careers in hockey.