[Rumour] Dreger: Bowen Byram trade talks heating up. Calgary one of many teams interested

[Paulie Walnuts]

We also have a unproven backup who didn't even play in the NHL last year with a career 3.71GAA and .881 save %. Playing behind a patchwork defence.

I don't think we finish last in goals but any improvement in offence is coming at the expense of goals against.

[taxbuster]

Someone made a comment about defence taking time to learn (in reference to Parekh). Coincidentally, I was watching some soccer highlights of Lionel Messi in a game a couple of days ago and he DRIBBLED through almost the entire opposition team to score. Fascinating.


D is hard, which is why those that are good at it are celebrated by coaches...but the NHL chooses to celebrate scorers from the blue line instead. Go figure.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

This is what drives me a little bit crazy with the Ras talk. Not pointed at you specifically, Groot.

ALL the teams CC is talking to have access to this same information that shows his performance over the past 1.5 seasons (coincidentally when he lost Hanifin as a partner) has suffered.

We're calling him a top pairing D when it's favorable to command that in a trade (see Wyatt Johnston talk) but also claim that Pachal can cover his minutes defensively and do a better job.

Which is it?

It is definitely not the same people trying to make both points. I argue often that Andersson is a top pair D. He might not be the #1 guy, but he is a great #2 guy and if you give him a strong partner he rises to the occasion.

Pachal will not be able to cover Andersson's minutes. In the last 3 seasons Pachal has been playing an average of 14 minutes per game while Andersson is almost 24 minutes per game. Increasing by 10 minutes per game is a massive ask of a player and no one should expect he'll be able to do that without struggling.

The people who think Pachal will be able to seamlessly take over Andersson's role are likely the same people who think Andersson is at best a second pair D and are dismissive of all of the other factors in the conversation.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Wolven

It is definitely not the same people trying to make both points. I argue often that Andersson is a top pair D. He might not be the #1 guy, but he is a great #2 guy and if you give him a strong partner he rises to the occasion.

Pachal will not be able to cover Andersson's minutes. In the last 3 seasons Pachal has been playing an average of 14 minutes per game while Andersson is almost 24 minutes per game. Increasing by 10 minutes per game is a massive ask of a player and no one should expect he'll be able to do that without struggling.

The people who think Pachal will be able to seamlessly take over Andersson's role are likely the same people who think Andersson is at best a second pair D and are dismissive of all of the other factors in the conversation.

Yeah, I mean Forsling was on the Panthers top pairing - I think Andersson is as good as him. Sean Walker was on the Canes. JJ Moser on the Bolts. Mikey Anderson on the Kings.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, I mean Forsling was on the Panthers top pairing - I think Andersson is as good as him. Sean Walker was on the Canes. JJ Moser on the Bolts. Mikey Anderson on the Kings.

I just don't think the league values these players (or Ras) as top pairing defenders. It seems pedantic but top pairing defenders should be partner-proof - able to play with anyone and lift their game, not being reliant on their partner to form a top tandem.

Forsling would probably be the exception of what you've listed. I think there's a lot of respect around the league for his game.

[D as in David]

Parekh would have to be some defensive savant to come into the league this year and handle the elite level of talent he would be put up against if he were replacing Andersson's minutes.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Have the trade talks frozen over, cooled down, heating up or boiling over yet?

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Have the trade talks frozen over, cooled down, heating up or boiling over yet?

Simmering. Reducing into a fine demi-glaze.

[Eb0la11]

Why would we want Byram? He has had multiple significant concussions that only compound later into a career. He almost quit hockey they were so bad. The longevity on this player is to be questioned.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I just don't think the league values these players (or Ras) as top pairing defenders. It seems pedantic but top pairing defenders should be partner-proof - able to play with anyone and lift their game, not being reliant on their partner to form a top tandem.

Forsling would probably be the exception of what you've listed. I think there's a lot of respect around the league for his game.

You are describing a 1D. If the cup champs don't have such a guy as a 2D, I think top pairing means something different.

I can think of maybe two teams that have this. And even there, it's a guess (how good is Toews without Makar). You can make a good argument about Dallas since there's evidence of how Harley did without Heiskenan.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Eb0la11

Why would we want Byram? He has had multiple significant concussions that only compound later into a career. He almost quit hockey they were so bad. The longevity on this player is to be questioned.

And he wants $9m/yr

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, I mean Forsling was on the Panthers top pairing - I think Andersson is as good as him. Sean Walker was on the Canes. JJ Moser on the Bolts. Mikey Anderson on the Kings.

Wow. I think you are vastly undervaluing Forsling

Forsling is +166 over the last 4 1/2 seasons while drawing top assignments and gets more even strength points than Rasmus

And before you say that he has a good plus minus because he’s on the Panthers you have to compare to his teammates

The last couple of seasons Forsling +/- has been wellclear of his other teammates, by a lot (+33 last year with the next best player at +17 and +56 the previous year with next best at +33)

If you don’t watch the Panthers regularly surely saw some of the playoffs?

I like Ras but no, he’s not as good as Forsling

[traptor]

Rasmus is a great player, but he's a 2/3 guys and not a #1.

He's a Hronek or Toews, not a Hughes or Makar (obviously) caliber player.

I personally think Weegar is a tier above, but Rasmus is still great.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Eb0la11

Why would we want Byram? He has had multiple significant concussions that only compound later into a career. He almost quit hockey they were so bad. The longevity on this player is to be questioned.

Especially if he gets the 8 year, $75-80 million contract he is seeking. Once he gets set up for the life, the decision to call it a career if he gets another concussion, is probably easier to make.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You are describing a 1D. If the cup champs don't have such a guy as a 2D, I think top pairing means something different.

I can think of maybe two teams that have this. And even there, it's a guess (how good is Toews without Makar). You can make a good argument about Dallas since there's evidence of how Harley did without Heiskenan.

I think it's fair to say the definition has changed in the last 20 years. Cap era doesn't provide teams the luxury of having rock solid top pairing defenders, it's now a guy and then a cast of characters who can fit in beside them that have a skillset.

For example, Ekman-Larsson isn't a top pairing defender but could be paired with a Forsling and play that role.

I would put Ras in the bucket of players who can play with a top pairing guy but can't be the partner who plays with *insert partner here* and that be your default top pairing.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Wow. I think you are vastly undervaluing Forsling

Forsling is +166 over the last 4 1/2 seasons while drawing top assignments and gets more even strength points than Rasmus

And before you say that he has a good plus minus because he’s on the Panthers you have to compare to his teammates

The last couple of seasons Forsling +/- has been wellclear of his other teammates, by a lot (+33 last year with the next best player at +17 and +56 the previous year with next best at +33)

If you don’t watch the Panthers regularly surely saw some of the playoffs?

I like Ras but no, he’s not as good as Forsling

It seems like you are undervaluing the quality of Forsling's D partner. Getting to play the bulk of his minutes last season with Ekblad and Jones is a significant difference from Bahl and Hanley.

Depending on where Andersson goes, I expect to see his stats recover a fair bit. For example, if he goes to the Stars and ends up playing ~24 minutes per game with Heiskanen on a team that scores 277 goals in the season instead of 225 then he is likely to have significantly more points, better +/-, and improved advanced stats.

Look at Harley. Most of his minutes was with Lyubushkin and their CF% was 47.62 (worse than Andersson with Bahl). When Harley was with Heiskanen their CF% was 60.82.

D partners make a difference.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ so Forsling was lucky to be partnered with +11 Ekblad and -6 Jones which helped him put up his +33 . Got it

Yes those guys are very good and they probably had their +/- dinged with other partners

But Forsling is good. The eye test shows it and the stats back it up

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Forsling has the best stick and defensive awareness I've seen since Lidstrom. He's been carrying around Ekblad for a while now. Ekblad's still good at a few things, but he's not the guy stirring the drink on that pair.

Sorry to Rasmus, but he's nowhere near that level of play.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ so Forsling was lucky to be partnered with +11 Ekblad and -6 Jones which helped him put up his +33 . Got it

Yes those guys are very good and they probably had their +/- dinged with other partners

But Forsling is good. The eye test shows it and the stats back it up

Not to mention a big reason McDavid had 1 goal and 7 points when he was putting up a 1.5 PPG pace in his playoff career.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Wow. I think you are vastly undervaluing Forsling

Forsling is +166 over the last 4 1/2 seasons while drawing top assignments and gets more even strength points than Rasmus

And before you say that he has a good plus minus because he’s on the Panthers you have to compare to his teammates

The last couple of seasons Forsling +/- has been wellclear of his other teammates, by a lot (+33 last year with the next best player at +17 and +56 the previous year with next best at +33)

If you don’t watch the Panthers regularly surely saw some of the playoffs?

I like Ras but no, he’s not as good as Forsling

Forsling is the Panther's best dman.