Why would Israel have needed allies to do this? They had the means to do so on their own and chose the path they took.
Had Israel taken the ground invasion approach they would likely have way more support from their allies today.
Valid point.
I suppose if the allies all rallied to help get rid of the terrorists, there might be a better chance they surrender, knowing that more troops are available to fight against them.
But, either scenario means more troops would be lost fighting a ground offensive rather than bombing.
Dude, people knew that was the better approach than a genocide and total property destruction right out of the gates. I fricken' knew it and I generally know nothing.
This post is from November 2023 lol. There are dozens like this right from the word go littered throughout the thread.
Dude, people knew that was the better approach than a genocide and total property destruction right out of the gates. I fricken' knew it and I generally know nothing.
This post is from November 2023 lol. There are dozens like this right from the word go littered throughout the thread.
What you say is that Israel must do the job of police. Track down criminals, arrest and prosecute them. That's what police services of their own country do for pay that comes from taxes of own country. Foreign army is not your police.
Another mistake is that you assume that Hamas is some illegal militia. They are not. They are Gaza government and Gaza official, even though ununiformed, army.
What you say is that Israel must do the job of police. Track down criminals, arrest and prosecute them. That's what police services of their own country do for pay that comes from taxes of own country. Foreign army is not your police.
Are you saying the Israeli military can’t do a more precise job though? We’re in the 21st century, aren’t we?
Are you saying the Israeli military can’t do a more precise job though? We’re in the 21st century, aren’t we?
I'm not saying their current plan is a good one, but how would you propose the Israeli army go through Gaza and determine which people are Hamas militants? They don't wear uniforms, they won't tell you if you ask them. While you're right it's the 21st century I don't think anyone has invented AI goggles that highlight militants in red and friendlies/non-combatants in green. Life isn't a video game.
I'm not saying their current plan is a good one, but how would you propose the Israeli army go through Gaza and determine which people are Hamas militants? They don't wear uniforms, they won't tell you if you ask them. While you're right it's the 21st century I don't think anyone has invented AI goggles that highlight militants in red and friendlies/non-combatants in green. Life isn't a video game.
I am not saying it’s easy or not time-consuming, but the US got Bin Laden without indiscriminately bombing or conducting drone strikes all over in the general vicinity just by using a little ingenuity.
What you say is that Israel must do the job of police. Track down criminals, arrest and prosecute them. That's what police services of their own country do for pay that comes from taxes of own country. Foreign army is not your police.
Another mistake is that you assume that Hamas is some illegal militia. They are not. They are Gaza government and Gaza official, even though ununiformed, army.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
If somebody in the neighbourhood of Edgemont in Calgary kidnaps a woman from Montana, it would not be acceptable for the USA to carpet bomb all of Calgary. They would have to find the guy and respond to that one guy. If the Canadian/Calgarian authorities were not being helpful, I guess do a surgical extraction/strike with Seal Team Six like they did for Osama. They didn't level half of Pakistan to get Osama...they went to his front door and popped him.
You need to use spy craft, intelligence services, sympathetic locals, bribes, surveillance, diplomacy and special forces where necessary.
You don't get to commit a genocide.
You're a ghoul.
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I'm not saying their current plan is a good one, but how would you propose the Israeli army go through Gaza and determine which people are Hamas militants? They don't wear uniforms, they won't tell you if you ask them. While you're right it's the 21st century I don't think anyone has invented AI goggles that highlight militants in red and friendlies/non-combatants in green. Life isn't a video game.
Mossad is (arguably) the second best intelligence agency in the world. They knew where an Iranian military commander’s bedroom was in their house in Iran and killed him with a precision strike from thousands of miles away.
They penetrated the Hezbollah’s entire beeper supply chain years in the making to carry out an attack. They set up a secret drone base basically inside the capital city of Iran. And that’s just the stuff we know about
And you’re telling me a military with that much funding, intelligence, and precision doesn’t have an idea of who is a Hamas militant and who isn’t and where they’re hiding inside their own occupied land, which is 40% the size of Calgary?
Give me a break.
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You need to use spy craft, intelligence services, sympathetic locals, bribes, surveillance, diplomacy and special forces where necessary.
You don't get to commit a genocide.
You're a ghoul.
Which by the way Israel has in spades in Mossad; one of the biggest intelligence agencies in the world. They're not some relic agency, the plot last year against Hezbollah and the entire attack last week that kicked off this round of Iran vs Israel.. Mossad. These guys aren't to be ####ed with and you're absolutely right, if that was Israel's goal they could have done it.
Israel’s spy agency used AI and smuggled-in drones to prepare attack on Iran
Outside of the CIA no one dies it better, and they might be the best.
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__________________ MMF is the tough as nails cop that "plays by his own rules". The force keeps suspending him when he crosses the line but he keeps coming back and then cracks a big case.
-JiriHrdina
Mossad is (arguably) the second best intelligence agency in the world. They knew where an Iranian military commander’s bedroom was in their house in Iran and killed him with a precision strike from thousands of miles away.
They penetrated the Hezbollah’s entire beeper supply chain years in the making to carry out an attack. They set up a secret drone base basically inside the capital city of Iran. And that’s just the stuff we know about
And you’re telling me a military with that much funding, intelligence, and precision doesn’t have an idea of who is a Hamas militant and who isn’t and where they’re hiding inside their own occupied land, which is 40% the size of Calgary?
Give me a break.
You honestly believe identifying, tracking, and assassinating around 30 high-level Hezbollah leaders is the same as identifying, tracking, and assassinating 25,000 Hamas militants in Gaza?
__________________
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Originally Posted by fotze
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You honestly believe identifying, tracking, and assassinating around 30 high-level Hezbollah leaders is the same as identifying, tracking, and assassinating 25,000 Hamas militants in Gaza?
Hahaha you think the number is 30?
And to answer your question: yes, I think they have complete control and surveillance over their occupied land. They know exactly where Hamas is. Is it the same as assassinating high-level targets? No, it’s definitely more difficult, but it’s certainly not out of Israel’s expertise and abilities. It’s just exponentially easier and takes less time to hit the areas with air strikes and level everything, without any regard for collateral damage and the murder of civilians.
You honestly believe Israel is doing everything it can to limit civilian casualties?
You honestly believe Israel is doing everything it can to limit civilian casualties?
No.
But that’s an entirely different question from how hard it is to identify, track, and kill 25,000 un-uniformed militants who live and mingle with the rest of the population in a highly built-up urban environment.
Mossad is good, but they don’t have all-seeing, all-knowing, science fiction level monitoring and control of Gaza. If they did, they wouldn’t have been caught so off-guard by Oct 7. Hamas built and launched motorized paragliders from Gaza without Israel realizing until it was too late. So clearly all kinds of activities can go on there without their knowledge.
Conventional explanations advanced over the years by numerous scholars and practitioners analyzing similar historical fiascoes provide part of the answer. The surprise can be attributed to abundant noise, deception, wishful thinking, groupthink, and failure of imagination. Nevertheless, careful analysis of the case at hand highlights several additional factors. The degree of surprise reflected an intelligence-collection shortfall on Hamas’ intentions. There was an over-reliance on warning systems, a misguided policy and military attitude toward Hamas, and a toxic relationship between Israel’s top leadership and its defense and intelligence establishment. These factors both distracted the establishment and systematically discouraged a confrontation with Hamas. Taken together, these factors underscore the need for countries to recalibrate their expectations regarding warnings of potential attacks and to put a newfound emphasis on readiness rather than prediction.
It's not that they couldn't know these things, it's that they failed to do the things needed to do in this case. I don't think that at all means they weren't capable, as we have seen from recent activities.
If somebody in the neighbourhood of Edgemont in Calgary kidnaps a woman from Montana, it would not be acceptable for the USA to carpet bomb all of Calgary. They would have to find the guy and respond to that one guy. If the Canadian/Calgarian authorities were not being helpful, I guess do a surgical extraction/strike with Seal Team Six like they did for Osama. They didn't level half of Pakistan to get Osama...they went to his front door and popped him.
You need to use spy craft, intelligence services, sympathetic locals, bribes, surveillance, diplomacy and special forces where necessary.
You don't get to commit a genocide.
You're a ghoul.
If some terrorist from USA kidnapped people from Canada, USA police would be dealing with it. So, Gaza police had to deal with it. Problem is, Gaza police is Hamas. So it's literally Gaza authorities, who kidnapped hostages.
Hence, Osama is bad comparison. He was not a part of Pakistani authorities in any way. Better comparison is ISIS. And US-led coalition absolutely did went to war, rather then some spy craft operations, against ISIS.
And to answer your question: yes, I think they have complete control and surveillance over their occupied land. They know exactly where Hamas is. Is it the same as assassinating high-level targets? No, it’s definitely more difficult, but it’s certainly not out of Israel’s expertise and abilities. It’s just exponentially easier and takes less time to hit the areas with air strikes and level everything, without any regard for collateral damage and the murder of civilians.
You honestly believe Israel is doing everything it can to limit civilian casualties?
It took over a year after October 7th 2023 to find and kill Sinwar. No, it's not easy at all.
No, Israel is not doing everything they can to limit civilian casualties. Nobody ever stated that. Israel is doing everything it can to limit the casualties among their troops and, beyond this, has no intention of killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians.
Last edited by Pointman; 06-21-2025 at 11:09 AM.
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Another unrelated thought I just had. In Canada there's a professional army. If you don't want to go to the army, you don't go. Soldiers are kind of a separate caste, who are doing their own thing. Wars, if ever happen, feel like deadly games between two teams of professionals.
In Israel, soldiers are literally everyone. All men and women, except for those damn ultra Orthodox, serve. In every other family there's soldier. In a family in an apartment below mine a girl serve. I play soccer with a guy, who serves as military fireman, but is usually available to play. Pretty much every adult of either gender is a former soldier. Many still have weapons. Soon after October 7th 2023 it was common to see parents with guns and submachine guns watching their kids play in public parks. It is, for lack of better comparison, a very wild west-ish society.
This blurs the line between soldiers and civilians much more, than it is in Canada. We feel like an army is a whole nation and a war is something that a whole nation fights. Killing soldier is just as bad, as killing a civilian.
The purpose of invading Gaza was never to get rid of Hamas, that might be a welcome side effect but the purpose was always to keep Israel in an endless crisis/war and so ensuring Bibi didn't end up in jail
I suppose if the allies all rallied to help get rid of the terrorists, there might be a better chance they surrender, knowing that more troops are available to fight against them.
But, either scenario means more troops would be lost fighting a ground offensive rather than bombing.
Israeli government are the main terrorists in this conflict. Full stop. No, not supporting Hamas. But their kill count pales in comparison to Bibi's crew of thugs.
You honestly believe identifying, tracking, and assassinating around 30 high-level Hezbollah leaders is the same as identifying, tracking, and assassinating 25,000 Hamas militants in Gaza?
Why are you arguing with a person that likely was engrossed by CSI tv show? Strand of hair = terrorist complete with facial profile!
