Does the NHL have a Canadian success problem?

[curves2000]

Thread bump/update for 2025.

Please see comments on the first page.

Full disclosure: This is not a PRO Edmonton Oiler thing. I am trying to start a convo about the state of the teams in the NHL that are based in Canada and how we conduct ourselves.

Personally I think they needs the NHL and ownerships attention to at least counteract some of these imbalances.

Enough is enough and as a country our sporting pride in our national sport should be a priority considering we dominate in the development of the players in the sport.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by bucksmasher

Fix the tax advantage problem so players aren't penalized financially to play here and we'll start winning cups

Sure, a pro sports league can "fix the tax advantage" across dozens and dozens of municipal, provincial, state, and national jurisdictions. No problemo.

Canadian teams should just build better rosters.

[Icon]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Thread bump/update for 2025.
.

Oilers losing again doesn't appear to be a problem.

Carry on.

[MegaErtz]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Canada has a Canada problem.

We all love Calgary here. Most of us live here and were raised here. But put yourself in someone else’s shoes. If you worked for a company that had headquarters in 32 different cities and you could work making millions in Miami, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Los Angeles, New York, Phoenix, or Winnipeg where are you choosing to work? I’m willing to bet Winnipeg isn’t the answer.

The reality is that Canada is not attractive to most players when there’s southern US markets on the table. We have to overpay to get guys to be here. And not just in free agency either. The Flames basically had to pay Gaudreau $1,000,000 to play one game just to get him to sign here out of college.

Canada isn’t an attractive market and we’re at an inherent disadvantage because of it. A good agent can work around the tax issues. They can’t work around a rabid fanbase, hypercritical media, and -30 winters.

This guy gets it. Nobody wants to live in -30 when they don't have to, especially when you can get paid more and live a much higher quality of life in the USA. We're a feeder team for US hockey teams. Guys like Bennett and Tkachuk prove it. We draft them, develop them, then if they have any ambition, they go off to American teams to win.

[MegaErtz]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Sure, a pro sports league can "fix the tax advantage" across dozens and dozens of municipal, provincial, state, and national jurisdictions. No problemo.

Canadian teams should just build better rosters.

The NFL seem to have done it. All 32 teams seem to have a decent chance at winning, and they can turn their fortunes around with a decent draft or two. The Flames have sucked for years now, and we're not in any danger of getting better anytime soon with guys on big contracts like Huberdeau mailing it in year after year.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Sure, a pro sports league can "fix the tax advantage" across dozens and dozens of municipal, provincial, state, and national jurisdictions. No problemo.

Canadian teams should just build better rosters.

European sports teams across different sports usually have the team pay the taxes to even it up. The players get their salaries and are even.

This is more than just taxes, it's a part of it but a lot more than just taxes.

[memphusk]

No. There is only one Canadian team. Calgary Flames.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by MegaErtz

This guy gets it. Nobody wants to live in -30 when they don't have to, especially when you can get paid more and live a much higher quality of life in the USA. We're a feeder team for US hockey teams. Guys like Bennett and Tkachuk prove it. We draft them, develop them, then if they have any ambition, they go off to American teams to win.

I’d argue that the issue with Canadian teams is management. Treliving dumped Bennett for cheap and then screwed up the Gaudreau and Tkachuk situation. The Oilers had a terrible offseason and it showed up in the finals.

[curves2000]

I also look at this a little deeper than others. It's hypothetical but not really out of the realm of possibility.

Say Crosby, Ovi, Patrick Kane, Towes, Stamkos, Mackinnon and dozens more top top NHL players played in Canada, they would have had nothing careers championship wise.

You look at other elite players like Tavaras, Mathews, Taylor Hall, McDavid, Leon and a lot more and they haven't done anything in Canada.

We literally have Flames fans who think that we still won the Bennett, Chucky trades and dealt with Johnny, Monny and other players well.

Effectively top players, elite players know that if you actually want to win, and winning is important, Canada is actually the worst place to play. Players don't win anything in Canada.

Imagine top NBA players having never won? NFL giants like Tom Brady, Manning, Maholms and others having their careers wasted in some wasteland of football America (because NFL Canada dominates)

It's kinda wild to actually think outside the box and see how bad the situation is in Canada with all the NHL clubs.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by memphusk

No. There is only one Canadian team. Calgary Flames.

I am die hard Flames fan but that mentality is a exactly that, a fan's mentality. I am 40 years old and have actually seen nothing in terms of winning, nothing. In the span of LESS than a year I saw a dead franchise win back to back Cups.

I go back to the ownership mindset of Tampa Bay's owner years ago when he bought the team. "What's going on here? 1 cup win vs some low level Canadian club in 2004??' He literally put the entire franchise on a different trajectory of non stop winning in regular season, playoffs, cup final losses and cup final wins.

Love the Flames but they are bottom feeders in terms of actual winning in Canada. We don't win, don't draft high, don't out perform, don't really win too many trades. Our only Cup win was a result of the games greatest player and our #1 rival selling the top player for cash cause he had money problems.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I also look at this a little deeper than others. It's hypothetical but not really out of the realm of possibility.

Say Crosby, Ovi, Patrick Kane, Towes, Stamkos, Mackinnon and dozens more top top NHL players played in Canada, they would have had nothing careers championship wise.

You look at other elite players like Tavaras, Mathews, Taylor Hall, McDavid, Leon and a lot more and they haven't done anything in Canada.

We literally have Flames fans who think that we still won the Bennett, Chucky trades and dealt with Johnny, Monny and other players well.

Effectively top players, elite players know that if you actually want to win, and winning is important, Canada is actually the worst place to play. Players don't win anything in Canada.

Imagine top NBA players having never won? NFL giants like Tom Brady, Manning, Maholms and others having their careers wasted in some wasteland of football America (because NFL Canada dominates)

It's kinda wild to actually think outside the box and see how bad the situation is in Canada with all the NHL clubs.

A lot of this is just making stuff up mixed in with that happened material. Tavares chose to play in Canada and I’m going to wager that some of the players you listed would have cups in Canada. Taylor Hall being mixed in with that list is extra funny.

I don’t know any Flames fan who still think they won those trades.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I also look at this a little deeper than others. It's hypothetical but not really out of the realm of possibility.

Say Crosby, Ovi, Patrick Kane, Towes, Stamkos, Mackinnon and dozens more top top NHL players played in Canada, they would have had nothing careers championship wise.

You look at other elite players like Tavaras, Mathews, Taylor Hall, McDavid, Leon and a lot more and they haven't done anything in Canada.

We literally have Flames fans who think that we still won the Bennett, Chucky trades and dealt with Johnny, Monny and other players well.

Effectively top players, elite players know that if you actually want to win, and winning is important, Canada is actually the worst place to play. Players don't win anything in Canada.

Imagine top NBA players having never won? NFL giants like Tom Brady, Manning, Maholms and others having their careers wasted in some wasteland of football America (because NFL Canada dominates)

It's kinda wild to actually think outside the box and see how bad the situation is in Canada with all the NHL clubs.

You’re not looking at this deeply nor out of the box, if anything you’ve just dumbed down a complex series of reasons why some teams/players win and some don’t to “Canada or not Canada.” There’s no depth to that argument.

Canadian teams have more in common with some US teams than they do other Canadian teams outside of being on the same side of the border. And lots NFL stars never won a Super Bowl.

Bad take still bad. Next.

[Calgary4LIfe]

The Flames' lack of winning is not a Canadian issue.



I would say that since the cap was instituted, Canada has had their fair share of Stanley Cup Finalists (and you can include Calgary in the last season played prior to the cap).


100% some teams in Canada are disadvantaged when it comes to attracting top-tier talent. Yet these teams still made the Finals. Calgary has not been a well-managed team for a very long time. I am more optimistic of things under Conroy, but it is a Calgary Flames thing, not a Canadian issue.


Edmonton makes it to the finals in back to back years (unfortunately, but PHEW! on them not winning it). Do you really point the finger at them not winning it a Canadian issue? Gee, how about they made the finals in spite of having an absolutely awful off-season in which they basically did everything wrong - got older, slower, crappier and didn't address their goaltending which proved to be an issue yet again. That doesn't scream to me as a "Canadian Issue".



As long as rising cap doesn't leave the Canadian franchises behind, I don't see a Canadian issue in having a lack of Canadian teams winning. They have been going to the finals. Half the Canadian teams look to be teams on the rise as well.



What the real issue I think is, the Oilers suck.

[troutman]

The Flames will burst this bubble. The question is not when, but how many?

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You’re not looking at this deeply nor out of the box, if anything you’ve just dumbed down a complex series of reasons why some teams/players win and some don’t to “Canada or not Canada.” There’s no depth to that argument.

Canadian teams have more in common with some US teams than they do other Canadian teams outside of being on the same side of the border. And lots NFL stars never won a Super Bowl.

Bad take still bad. Next.

Well you may think it's a bad take but the proof is in the numbers. Canadian teams just don't win. They don't win cups, they don't win series to the same degree. When they have gone to the cup finals in recent memory (04, 06,07,11,21,24,25) they have lost. Some of those teams were underdogs, some favorite and I may have missed one.

American teams seem to be able to actually turn it around and be really competitive quickly. This is a Flames form and most of us are Flames fans but are the Flames really a team that we can look forward to the next 10 years as being an elite club? In all honesty?

Other fans are laughing at Leon, McDavid, Hughs, Mathews and other elite players in Canada leaving for greener pastures. Would that hypothetically happen in other sports to Canada on a never ending basis in a competitive league? European soccer stars fleeing Paris, Milan, London and Munich for the chance to win in Calgary and Winnipeg? Imagine if American NFL teams just couldn't break through because Regina hoarded all the talent and Calgary/Edmonton were out bidding NY and Miami?

I don't see any legit NHL fan who can sit here and say 32+ years of losing non stop in a balanced system isn't some sort of concern. It's clear Canada can not compete in the current system and nobody in any team has been able to figure it out cause they would need to drastically outperform by a different level in order for that to happen.

[Coach]

No. Canadian teams are 20% of the league. In the last 25 years Canadian teams have been in the SCF 7/25 times (28%).

This whole illusion is what makes a bunch of cluds start cheering for rivals as "Canada's" team. There have plenty of chances for a Canadian team to win. They couldn't pull it out just like a lot of teams can't, it has nothing to do with being a Canadian team or not. This doesn't even count good teams that went to conference finals, or regular season teams that didn't do playoff damage.

[SuperMatt18]

NHL teams generally have a patience and management problem.

They aren't patient enough to build a winner and always push their chips in too early or mismanage their teams salary cap.

Too much pressure and scrutiny on GMs and owners get too involved, which is not an issue many U.S. markets have.

The tax thing is just an excuse. Oilers had McDavid and Draisaitl on sweetheart deals and mismanaging the team around them had nothing to do with taxes.

Same with Treliving failing to lock up Gaudreau and Tkachuk long term sooner, and also butchering Bennett's development.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Well you may think it's a bad take but the proof is in the numbers. Canadian teams just don't win. They don't win cups, they don't win series to the same degree. When they have gone to the cup finals in recent memory (04, 06,07,11,21,24,25) they have lost. Some of those teams were underdogs, some favorite and I may have missed one.

American teams seem to be able to actually turn it around and be really competitive quickly. This is a Flames form and most of us are Flames fans but are the Flames really a team that we can look forward to the next 10 years as being an elite club? In all honesty?

Other fans are laughing at Leon, McDavid, Hughs, Mathews and other elite players in Canada leaving for greener pastures. Would that hypothetically happen in other sports to Canada on a never ending basis in a competitive league? European soccer stars fleeing Paris, Milan, London and Munich for the chance to win in Calgary and Winnipeg? Imagine if American NFL teams just couldn't break through because Regina hoarded all the talent and Calgary/Edmonton were out bidding NY and Miami?

I don't see any legit NHL fan who can sit here and say 32+ years of losing non stop in a balanced system isn't some sort of concern. It's clear Canada can not compete in the current system and nobody in any team has been able to figure it out cause they would need to drastically outperform by a different level in order for that to happen.

Have you done the simple math that there are only 7 Canadian teams to start with and then add in that a lot of the cups were won by the same team.

The Sabres are really turning things around quick. The Sharks had a team that couldn’t finish. The Rangers, Wild, Blue Jackets, and Islanders are bastions of success and quick turnarounds. Even Ovechkin only has one cup. Winning a cup is hard and management matters, I’d agree that Canadian teams have had a lot of subpar management though. If the Oilers had better management then they’d have two cups instead of Florida.

[MegaErtz]

Originally Posted by Coach

No. Canadian teams are 20% of the league. In the last 25 years Canadian teams have been in the SCF 7/25 times (28%).

This whole illusion is what makes a bunch of cluds start cheering for rivals as "Canada's" team. There have plenty of chances for a Canadian team to win. They couldn't pull it out just like a lot of teams can't, it has nothing to do with being a Canadian team or not. This doesn't even count good teams that went to conference finals, or regular season teams that didn't do playoff damage.

Oh man, I'm going to do my best not to come off like a prick here. 7/32 teams are Canadian. That's a little shy of 22%, not 20%. Two teams a year make the finals, not one. So by that measure, a Canadian team should be making the finals seven out of sixteen seasons. That's 43.75%. Going back sixteen seasons, a Canadian team has made the finals four times, which is only 4/32 or 12.5%. If you go back a couple of more years, a Canadian team were finalists only 4 out of 36, for 11%.

By any measure since 1993, Canadian teams suck. We just can't compete with America. Are there seven other teams since 1993 that haven't won a cup? Including relocation? It is one of the most unbelievable stats in all of sports.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by MegaErtz

Oh man, I'm going to do my best not to come off like a prick here. 7/32 teams are Canadian. That's a little shy of 22%, not 20%. Two teams a year make the finals, not one. So by that measure, a Canadian team should be making the finals seven out of sixteen seasons. That's 43.75%. Going back sixteen seasons, a Canadian team has made the finals four times, which is only 4/32 or 12.5%. If you go back a couple of more years, a Canadian team were finalists only 4 out of 36, for 11%.

By any measure since 1993, Canadian teams suck. We just can't compete with America. Are there seven other teams since 1993 that haven't won a cup? Including relocation? It is one of the most unbelievable stats in all of sports.

7 non Canadian teams have never won a cup:
Sabres
Wild
Blue Jackets
Utah/Arizona
Kraken
Sharks
Predators

Two more teams haven’t won a cup since the Canadiens won (add rangers if they didn’t win the following year):

Islanders
Flyers

With the seven Canadian teams, that’s half the league 16 out of 32 teams) that haven’t touched the cup since the Canadiens won.

It’s a tough cup to win.