And you could probably find a better way to spend your time than pursuing underage sex partners.
I kid, I kid! But it is kinda fun to just make up stuff about other posters, isn’t it? It’s certainly easier than addressing what people actually say.
What a surprise that out of anything you could have used an insult, your first instinct is to call a member of the community a groomer. Bigots just can’t help the mask from slipping.
I didn’t actually say “natal girls and women have to stop being such babies and suck it up” but that didn’t stop you from taking the easy route instead of addressing what people actually had to say, did it? Maybe one day you’ll stop begging for attention and crying when you get it.
Or maybe you’ll just put as much effort into defending the trans and LGBTQ community at large as you have defending the likes of Jordan Peterson and Nazi Germany. Won’t hold my breath.
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What a surprise that out of anything you could have used an insult, your first instinct is to call a member of the community a groomer. Bigots just can’t help the mask from slipping.
It's not even slipping. After that, it's fully off.
Last edited by rubecube; 06-11-2025 at 03:49 PM.
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What a surprise that out of anything you could have used an insult, your first instinct is to call a member of the community a groomer. Bigots just can’t help the mask from slipping.
I didn’t actually say “natal girls and women have to stop being such babies and suck it up” but that didn’t stop you from taking the easy route instead of addressing what people actually had to say, did it? Maybe one day you’ll stop begging for attention and crying when you get it.
Or maybe you’ll just put as much effort into defending the trans and LGBTQ community at large as you have defending the likes of Jordan Peterson and Nazi Germany. Won’t hold my breath.
You don’t seem to be engaging in the spirit of light-hearted comradery that you’re usually such an enthusiastic champion of. We’re all just a bunch of dudes having a laugh with one another. If you’re taking any of this stuff seriously, it might time to step away from the keyboard.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
You don’t seem to be engaging in the spirit of light-hearted comradery that you’re usually such an enthusiastic champion of. We’re all just a bunch of dudes having a laugh with one another. If you’re taking any of this stuff seriously, it might time to step away from the keyboard.
The spirits are high bud, it’s all light. I wouldn’t say we’re necessarily “having a laugh” as anti-LGBTQ hate speech isn’t as fun or as common in my circle as it must be in yours, but from what I understand, you struggle to have much of a circle at all. Maybe reflecting on this will provide a few clues as to why people keep their distance.
Maybe it’s not everyone else who is “deeply unhappy” after all, eh?
You don’t seem to be engaging in the spirit of light-hearted comradery that you’re usually such an enthusiastic champion of. We’re all just a bunch of dudes having a laugh with one another. If you’re taking any of this stuff seriously, it might time to step away from the keyboard.
You just made a "wink wink, nudge nudge" joke about a member of this board being a pedophile, despite any and every opportunity not to.
That's pretty f###ed up, Cliff.
__________________ "It's a great day for hockey."
-'Badger' Bob Johnson (1931-1991)
"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm." -Dr. Amos "Doc" Cochran
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You don’t seem to be engaging in the spirit of light-hearted comradery that you’re usually such an enthusiastic champion of. We’re all just a bunch of dudes having a laugh with one another. If you’re taking any of this stuff seriously, it might time to step away from the keyboard.
There's a pretty big difference between joking around that people are "miserable with their lives" and using a known (Nazi) trope that's been used as an excuse to persecute and commit violence against gay men for a very long time.
Wild that you would then double-down on it. You're free to post however you like on this forum until the mods or Bingo think you've crossed the line, but don't expect any remaining shred of doubt from the rest of us on these topics going forward.
I know a bunch of women skateboarders and there are a couple of examples of trans athletes beating cis women but it only seems to get discussed on outlets like Piers Morgan and Tim Pool. It’s a pretty inclusive sport so I hope they have things sorted out. Red Bull is a huge sponsor and they support trans athletes so that helps.
You just made a "wink wink, nudge nudge" joke about a member of this board being a pedophile, despite any and every opportunity not to.
That's pretty f###ed up, Cliff.
After Pepsi said I was picking on trans kids. Which I have not done in this thread or anywhere else. It was just another Pepsi lie, the kind that he makes routinely on this forum when he disagree with anyone. It’s why he has gotten in endless pissing matches with dozens and dozens of people on this forum. The dude still PMs me even though I delete the PMs unread. He’s a nutbar.
I only take shots at people here (and by people I pretty much mean Pepsi) after they’ve taken a half-dozen at me. Pepsi’s comment that I pick on trans kids was a lie and a shot. One of many. But you’re right, my response was excessive. It was a kind of test to see where the line is in telling malignant lies about someone on this forum.
You seem like a reasonable guy. Are you okay with the #### Pepsi pulls around here? Would you be as tolerant of his lying, straw-manning, and antagonism if his politics and targets were different?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
You can just apologize for using hate speech instead of making stuff up about me to justify your deep seated resentment and sick obsession, Cliff.
Just because you have a problem with facing the fact that your views and the misinformation you’ve shared over the years are harmful to trans kids, doesn’t give you an excuse to use hate speech, laugh at people being told to kill themselves, or lying about what they’ve done and calling them crazy.
I don't really understand why Cliff keeps engaging with people who think he's an evil bigot. What could you possibly get out of these interactions that's in any way worth the effort of participating in them? I get what Pepsi gets out of it, but not Cliff.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
I don't really understand why Cliff keeps engaging with people who think he's an evil bigot. What could you possibly get out of these interactions that's in any way worth the effort of participating in them? I get what Pepsi gets out of it, but not Cliff.
I think he values truth, honesty and objectivity. I think he views his perspective as one that many share, but few will voice. I think he is divorcing the feelings and 'the person' of PF from the discussion - this isn't a deeply personal issue for him, but more of a philosophical one. He didn't realize this isn't a CP argument about merging or whatever where we'll all go for the jugular because it doesn't really matter in those arguments, whereas this topic affects the core of a person's being and the broader rights of a group of marginalized people. A group to which PF belongs.
From Cliff's perspective, he was discussing this topic like we discuss many on here. I think PF had every right to be offended and hurt reading Cliff's approach to this topic, but I also don't think Cliff meant to offend as much as he did. It's also possible he did mean to offend, but thought it was a tit for tat (it wasn't; just my Cliff whispering here).
I don't pipe up in this thread an awful lot, but I always come in to listen. It's great at helping those of us who grew up in a more homophobic time push past our biases and listen to more evolved and less bigoted points of view. Pepsi has helped me greatly over the years learn and improve on this.
Easy for me to say, but I think Cliff piping up is good, although I hate the thought of PF and others being hurt. I do hope these discussions ultimately help Cliff and others following along to grow their understanding. Should PF have to suffer to teach Cliff? Of course not - he shouldn't have to take it on the chin or hold anybody's hand to walk them out of their own biases.
I will say PF helped me years ago reflect on some of my positions and it led to permanent change for me. He did it with class and patience without making me feel like a POS. I'm grateful for that. It also taught me just admonishing somebody for having crappy views - which is my typical strategy - can be less effective at helping somebody change their view. I'm not smart enough to use the approach myself, but it did teach me an important lesson on planting some seeds in somebody's brain and then backing off and giving them space to grow (or not).
I get that if you've tried planting seeds enough and they never grow, you're under no obligation to continue to try to help somebody (not that you were under any obligation before, either).
Also, we all seem to agree that trans people in sports is a statistically insignificant problem. I'd bet people taking steroids in sports is a much bigger problem if we're just worried about fair competition, so it's a giant joke to pretend this whole thing is about integrity in sport.
Or what about money in sports? It's not an even playing field. The guy that could smash all the 100m dash records in the world is probably picking fruit somewhere in South America and we'll never know how awesome he would have been simply because he was born in a poor village we've never heard of. That's not fair at all, but some upper middleclass good looking white chick flaps around on Fox news crying about how unfair it is she had to compete against a trans athlete as she wraps up her ivy league education paid for by parental wealth and scholarships biased in her favour. Opportunities rain down on her, but life is so unfair because of trans people.
Got a bit off topic and I think Cliff should listen, but I also don't think he's deliberately out to hurt people and his opinion is shared by many. He's not trolling and I honestly believe it's his goal to approach this thoughtfully. Can I see why people would read what he's saying and hear bigotry and thoughtlessness? Yeah. I can also say I read what he's written, see shades of my former perspective, and know he's capable of evolving his opinion. It could also be that he won't change his opinion as he may conclude many of us have taken tolerance too far.
I still have a bias where I actually wouldn't want my daughter to have to compete in swimming or snowboarding (her sports) against a trans female athlete. My concern with this perspective - and why I'm even hesitant to bring it up - is because I've experienced an evolution of my own views on all LGBTQ issues over the years and I have zero confidence in that gut feeling that it actually isn't fair to my daughter if she faced off against a trans female. I understand I may very well be wrong when I think there could be an advantage to the trans athlete. For that reason, I'm taking the weasel way out and just sitting on the sidelines trying to understand this component of this issue, which is probably the main, idk, I guess anti-trans-suppprt view that still rattles around in my brain.
Cliff seems more sure of his perspective than I am of mine, but I'm not sure we're convincing anyone - and there are many - who view things like Cliff does. I don't see Cliff as the kind of guy going to Drag story time and yelling at people. I don't imagine he gets together with his friends and they go out gay bashing after boardgame nights. I do think his goal is to think about these things, and he's clearly landed on the side that is very unpopular on CP, but I think less unpopular in the broader population.
For many of us on the sidelines, it's helpful to read what he says to see the rebuttals. It's not worth it if PF and others are going to bed at night feeling like crap about it or feeling unsupported by the rest of us, but maybe there's some solace in the fact that there are those of us on here reading along, learning and growing our understanding in positive ways.
Cliff: I'm reading what you're saying and not seeing a bad or evil guy, for what that's worth.
PF: I'm reading along and understanding why you're offended and hurt by Cliff's views, and I'm sorry for how that must feel. Also sorry a guy like me can't quite get over the finish line on this aspect of this topic to 100% be with you, but I do trust that you're pulling things in the right direction to make the world better and more tolerant, and that's why I would stand with you on this even understanding there are components of this I don't yet understand.
Finally, to PF, a real-world example of how knowing you made things a bit better out in Calgary last month. I was with my friends at Sound Room. Standing room only so we were kind of standing in a hallway in front of the bar facing each other. This gay dude had to go to the bathroom and he did this hilarious little twirly dance right down our line. I said, 'sweet moves, man' and he danced some more hah. I bought him a beer and we had a fun chat. I thought of a young you and how a big bearded dude like me may have been an intimidating presence for a fellow like this in the not-too-distant past and I was happy to have hopefully been a part of making his night more fun, as he made mine more fun. I was able to hang out with him because of the efforts you and many in your community have gone to to help people like me be better and to shed our homophobia.
Point is, I'm sure it hasn't been easy through your life dealing with having to teach people you have no obligation to teach, but I do thank you for taking the interest, time and energy to help us be better and to be able to enjoy hanging out with people we would not have understood absent of your efforts. While demoralizing and deflating these conversations - that are deeply meaningful for you and potentially casual for some of us - can be, your efforts are not in vain and have moved the needle. And the lessons I've learned have been imparted to my kids, so you taking the time for one person like me does have a downstream positive impact, so your reach may be longer than you realize.
Last edited by Sliver; 06-12-2025 at 10:06 AM.
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I don't really understand why Cliff keeps engaging with people who think he's an evil bigot. What could you possibly get out of these interactions that's in any way worth the effort of participating in them? I get what Pepsi gets out of it, but not Cliff.
Do you think it was accidental that Cliff used that trope?
-snip-
I still have a bias where I actually wouldn't want my daughter to have to compete in swimming or snowboarding (her sports) against a trans female athlete. My concern with this perspective - and why I'm even hesitant to bring it up - is because I've experienced an evolution of my own views on all LGBTQ issues over the years and I have zero confidence in that gut feeling that it actually isn't fair to my daughter if she faced off against a trans female. I understand I may very well be wrong when I think there could be an advantage to the trans athlete. For that reason, I'm taking the weasel way out and just sitting on the sidelines trying to understand this component of this issue, which is probably the main, idk, I guess anti-trans-suppprt view that still rattles around in my brain.
-snip-
Lots of good stuff Sliver. Just to discuss this part of it, it's certainly possible it isn't fair. As you mentioned earlier in the post, there are a myriad of reasons. So if we accept the premise that most sports are not completely fair, we open up the possibility that fairness can't matter(it's an impossible ideal). I think in professional sport we should still strive for a playing field that aims for fairness, but acknowledges that advantages inherently exist, and can never be levelled. Which it's why it is important for individual governing bodies to look at their sport, and if advantages can be tempered, as they have for doping, and even things like equipment.
Now the big but...BUT! almost all sport played by everyone everywhere is not professional. The reality of a child continuing to compete in sport at a professional level after high school is small, and after University is tiny. The odds of a trans person ending up there is far smaller. So we can choose to craft a blanket policy that applies to all sport, in the minuscule chance it prevents a real or perceived advantage, or we can accept that everything leading up to that can be far less rigid.
This will inevitable lead to broken hearts and sadness, but no more so than any other advantage or disadvantage kids face along the way. Who hasn't competed in something they cared about, and for one reason or another, don't achieve what they set out to? The benefit is it is far better for kids to grow up in an environment of acceptance, and you see it in the comrade of sport, and where trans kids are accepted and welcomed on a team. It's a learning experience, as is standing on a lower podium step next to someone who beat you for any number of reasons, many of which are "not fair". Life isn't fair(if you think it is, you have it far better than most) and the sooner kids learn to deal with that, the better chance they have in society. And is school not about learning?
The last point is that trans and other members of the community have a hard enough time in life, and most face discrimination in a profoundly unfair way. Is it so bad they occasionally get a win, or a slight advantage? Policies like this just further alien and "other" them.
I think it's also a good lesson for parents, to accept it isn't fair and stop yelling at the refs!
Finally, never give them an inch, and this is giving them a mile.
