[Trade] Flames trade Mangiapane to Capitals for COL 2025 2nd

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But he didn't wait until the 11th hour.

He was on it the summer before but they didn't come to terms.

Do you know what the Gaudreau camp demanded? I think you need to in order to say a mistake was made.

But he did wait. It was reported the flames made their significant moves on the Gaudreau offer the day before he was a free agent. Sure sounds like the Flames tabled a $9.5M offer and waited until the day before to give into the $10.5 + all the bonuses and clauses they ended up giving to Huberdeau.

Treliving could not close the deal the summer before and that is on him. You have a star player from the US who wants to stay here I think Treliving should have got the deal done then or moved him. A HUGE portion of CP felt the same way.

Treliving squeezed Johnny in a negotiation the first time. He is also about to lose his second superstar winger for nothing in free agency.

Terrible GM

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

But he did wait. It was reported the flames made their significant moves on the Gaudreau offer the day before he was a free agent. Sure sounds like the Flames tabled a $9.5M offer and waited until the day before to give into the $10.5 + all the bonuses and clauses they ended up giving to Huberdeau.

Treliving could not close the deal the summer before and that is on him. You have a star player from the US who wants to stay here I think Treliving should have got the deal done then or moved him. A HUGE portion of CP felt the same way.

Treliving squeezed Johnny in a negotiation the first time. He is also about to lose his second superstar winger for nothing in free agency.

Terrible GM

I was talking the year before.

The two sides were hard at it right up until the Gaudreau deadline when the season started.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Flames reportedly didn’t really make a big change in their offer until the eve of free agency. Trelviing tried to use time as leverage and lost. It was reported the flames made the significant change to their offer in the final day.

My whole point is Treliving was a bad GM that created the mess he made in Calgary and there seem to be some people who want to discount some of his biggest mistakes. I supported Brad for most of his time in Calgary but looking back at his history it was very mismanaged and not just bad coaching hires.

Who are these people?

I think every GM makes many mistakes. It's not a science, there are a lot of "calls" and "gut"?

But the threshold of worst GM in Flames history or belonging with Button and Risebrough?

No way.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I just wish there was some real estate between a gold star and "it's all your fault!"

There are really no shades of gray when discussing if a player was retained or lost for nothing so not sure why people are trying to give credit to a GM that failed at his job?

The argument that he was super close to getting Johnny done is just so Treliving. We often would hear that he was in on everyone and the flames were the runners up on this guy or that guy. It was an exciting the first couple of times but got old.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

There are really no shades of gray when discussing if a player was retained or lost for nothing so not sure why people are trying to give credit to a GM that failed at his job?

The argument that he was super close to getting Johnny done is just so Treliving. We often would hear that he was in on everyone and the flames were the runners up on this guy or that guy. It was an exciting the first couple of times but got old.

Treliving did many things well (some GMs don't)
Treliving made many mistakes (all GMs do)

That puts him in the middle between "all your fault!" and gold star.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

There are really no shades of gray when discussing if a player was retained or lost for nothing so not sure why people are trying to give credit to a GM that failed at his job?

The argument that he was super close to getting Johnny done is just so Treliving. We often would hear that he was in on everyone and the flames were the runners up on this guy or that guy. It was an exciting the first couple of times but got old.

There are totally shades of grey. If you are saying a guy failed because he made all the possible reasonable efforts to keep a guy, but the guy just refused to be kept, that seems to me to be a different shade than if there was a conscious decision to drop the player, and in between there's the area of "he tried but didn't do enough".

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Treliving did many things well (some GMs don't)
Treliving made many mistakes (all GMs do)

That puts him in the middle between "all your fault!" and gold star.

A lot of GM’s trade picks for depth players
A lot of GM’s trade 1st rounders for shut down Dmen
Some GM’s have 7 head coaches who work for them in 11 years in the role
I am sure another GM has lost a top 10 scorer for nothing in free agency before but has there been a GM who has lost 2? If Marner walks that is the case with Brad.

You say he is an average (maybe above average?) GM.

I think he is one of the worst.

Agree to disagree

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

A lot of GM’s trade picks for depth players
A lot of GM’s trade 1st rounders for shut down Dmen
Some GM’s have 7 head coaches who work for them in 11 years in the role
I am sure another GM has lost a top 10 scorer for nothing in free agency before but has there been a GM who has lost 2? If Marner walks that is the case with Brad.

You say he is an average (maybe above average?) GM.

I think he is one of the worst.

Agree to disagree

Jarmo lost Panarin and Bobrovsky to UFA. Ranked 1 and 3 top UFA signings on this list from a year ago:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...est-nba-rumors

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

There are really no shades of gray when discussing if a player was retained or lost for nothing so not sure why people are trying to give credit to a GM that failed at his job?

The argument that he was super close to getting Johnny done is just so Treliving. We often would hear that he was in on everyone and the flames were the runners up on this guy or that guy. It was an exciting the first couple of times but got old.

There is some truth to that. Ultimately outcomes matter and it ended up being poor asset management. But there are considerations. Did he have ownership support to trade the player the summer before? Did he have ownership support to sign him to whatever deal was required?

Because that was the key moment in time. They weren't going to trade him the season of his pending UFA status based on how the team was going. That's just not a reasonable expectation.

So it comes down to the off-season before, when he was coming off seasons of 58 points in 70 games, and 49 points in 56 games.
So your trade return was going to be lower.
And there is likely a gap between what the player wanted to sign and what you would be willing to sign.

You can view these as excuses but it's all important context for how things played out the way they did. In a perfect world, they would have traded him that summer, but I say that absent any knowledge of what type of return they would have gotten.

It's the same with Marner. You can blame BT, but the reality is he had mere days to trade him before his NTC kicked in.

Situational stuff like this can't be ignored.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

But he did wait. It was reported the flames made their significant moves on the Gaudreau offer the day before he was a free agent. Sure sounds like the Flames tabled a $9.5M offer and waited until the day before to give into the $10.5 + all the bonuses and clauses they ended up giving to Huberdeau.

Treliving could not close the deal the summer before and that is on him. You have a star player from the US who wants to stay here I think Treliving should have got the deal done then or moved him. A HUGE portion of CP felt the same way.

Treliving squeezed Johnny in a negotiation the first time. He is also about to lose his second superstar winger for nothing in free agency.

Terrible GM

And from the sound of it, what really sealed the deal for Johnny leaving was all the discussion and looking around he did between the low ball offer and the actual offer. If Tre tables the real offer first, Johnny doesn't put as much consideration into alternative scenarios.

Johnny should have been offered the Huberdeau contract part-way through his monster 2021-22 season.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by blankall

And from the sound of it, what really sealed the deal for Johnny leaving was all the discussion and looking around he did between the low ball offer and the actual offer. If Tre tables the real offer first, Johnny doesn't put as much consideration into alternative scenarios.

Johnny should have been offered the Huberdeau contract part-way through his monster 2021-22 season.

It was agreed we wouldn’t negotiate during the season. You would further piss off a player having a career year.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Jarmo lost Panarin and Bobrovsky to UFA. Ranked 1 and 3 top UFA signings on this list from a year ago:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...est-nba-rumors

Panarin was 18th in league scoring when he left Columbus. Gaudreau was tied for 2nd in 2022 and Marner was 5th this year. I can’t think of a GM who lost players of that caliber for nothing especially when they were leaving the organization that drafted them.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Panarin was 18th in league scoring when he left Columbus. Gaudreau was tied for 2nd in 2022 and Marner was 5th this year. I can’t think of a GM who lost players of that caliber for nothing especially when they were leaving the organization that drafted them.

He also traded for 2 UFA players from Ottawa and let them walk as UFA as well. It was pretty brutal.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

A lot of GM’s trade picks for depth players
A lot of GM’s trade 1st rounders for shut down Dmen
Some GM’s have 7 head coaches who work for them in 11 years in the role
I am sure another GM has lost a top 10 scorer for nothing in free agency before but has there been a GM who has lost 2? If Marner walks that is the case with Brad.

You say he is an average (maybe above average?) GM.

I think he is one of the worst.

Agree to disagree

You’re really stretching.

Most/nearly all GM’s trade picks for depth players while in contention. That’s not a criticism that means much.

7 coaches in 11 years removes all context. Was he supposed to know about Peters? I guess, technically, Geoff Ward counts too. To jog your memory though, Ward took over on an interim basis then there was this thing called the pandemic that hit. So perhaps, maybe, just maybe, the Calgary Flames operating budget changed and, all things being equal, Ward could fill in on a short term basis until things got back to normal. I’ll go out on a limb and say Geoff Ward would have been towards gge bottom of the league on the pay scale for head coaches. If you know anything about Edwards, that would fit the bill. Let’s also bear in mind this was the time Treliving’s started talking to Sutter about the job. I think both have acknowledged that. And the thing about hiring a person is although you can offer them the job, they have to accept it. Maybe Sutter, who had retired, wasn’t convinced he wanted to leave the farm just yet. I’ll connect the dots, Ward was a lame duck. Treliving and ownership wanted Sutter and were willing to be patient.

Your criticism that Marner is on Brad’s watch is also misguided. He had nothing to do with Mariner’s current contract. It’s also well known that he tried to enter negotiations with Mariners camp at multiple points this season. It’s also well known Marner nixed a deal to Carolina for Rantenin. For context, Marner’s NTC, was given to him by a Dubas, not Treliving. In fact, there’s plenty of smoke around the reason Dubas list his job was because of a fundamental difference he had with Shanahan about trading Marner while they could. Shanahan did not want to.

Look, Treliving deserves criticism, all GM’s do, but you looking to blame him for things that weren’t in his control, it weakens your argument.

You may think he’s one of the worst but, if that’s the case, why did the Flames want to keep him and why is he now the GM of the richest/most valuable hockey franchise on the planet? Or maybe number 2 behind the NYR’s.

[Jason14h]

Because the Flames and Leafs are both poorly run unsuccessful franchises ?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by TOfan

You’re really stretching.

Most/nearly all GM’s trade picks for depth players while in contention. That’s not a criticism that means much.

7 coaches in 11 years removes all context. Was he supposed to know about Peters? I guess, technically, Geoff Ward counts too. To jog your memory though, Ward took over on an interim basis then there was this thing called the pandemic that hit. So perhaps, maybe, just maybe, the Calgary Flames operating budget changed and, all things being equal, Ward could fill in on a short term basis until things got back to normal. I’ll go out on a limb and say Geoff Ward would have been towards gge bottom of the league on the pay scale for head coaches. If you know anything about Edwards, that would fit the bill. Let’s also bear in mind this was the time Treliving’s started talking to Sutter about the job. I think both have acknowledged that. And the thing about hiring a person is although you can offer them the job, they have to accept it. Maybe Sutter, who had retired, wasn’t convinced he wanted to leave the farm just yet. I’ll connect the dots, Ward was a lame duck. Treliving and ownership wanted Sutter and were willing to be patient.

Your criticism that Marner is on Brad’s watch is also misguided. He had nothing to do with Mariner’s current contract. It’s also well known that he tried to enter negotiations with Mariners camp at multiple points this season. It’s also well known Marner nixed a deal to Carolina for Rantenin. For context, Marner’s NTC, was given to him by a Dubas, not Treliving. In fact, there’s plenty of smoke around the reason Dubas list his job was because of a fundamental difference he had with Shanahan about trading Marner while they could. Shanahan did not want to.

Look, Treliving deserves criticism, all GM’s do, but you looking to blame him for things that weren’t in his control, it weakens your argument.

You may think he’s one of the worst but, if that’s the case, why did the Flames want to keep him and why is he now the GM of the richest/most valuable hockey franchise on the planet? Or maybe number 2 behind the NYR’s.

Let’s start with the coaches. Bill Peters was an absolutely terrible hire from the moment. It was a criticism I gave to Treliving directly at a season ticket holder event. It was clear he interviewed no one else for the job and Peters had completed 4 of the most mediocre years in Carolina. They buddied up at the Worlds and Treliving had tunnel vision on Peters as his coach. That hire turned into him having to hire Ward and piss away 2 possible playoff runs with Gaudreau/Tkachuk.

I noticed it with Jiri’s comment and I noticed it with yours. When it doubt let’s blame ownership. Sure it is an easy target and most people don’t like how Edwards strong armed the city into the arena deal or doesn’t want to tank but the Flames spend money. The Flames have the bloated management structure with multiple AGM’s and a POHO. They paid Sutter $8M to stay home. They gave Huberdeau the richest contract possible in the form of signing bonuses and buyout proofing the deal. But no they weren’t going to let him sign Gaudreau to a big deal or hire a half decent coach.


I have only brought up Brad being at the helm for losing 2 top 5 scorers for nothing in free agency. He did not sign that contract and it is what it is but not sure how that weakens anything? Does someone read that, disagree, and then decide the rest of the facts are irrelevant?

I look at what Treliving has done in Toronto and I see a lot of the same mistakes. The Leafs have no picks, very few prospects and will rely on free agency to make changes to their team. He is likely going to buy out one of those ridiculous 4 year deals handed out to Kampf and Reeves. He has 3 Dmen over 32 years old signed to 3-5 years more term.

I have no idea why Edwards wanted to keep him? Brad is probably good at managing up and selling the owners they were closer than they were. As for Toronto I think the media fawned over Brad after the “summer of Brad” and praised him for the moves that looked really impressive when you take away the fact those moves were made due to him fumbling our franchise players. The fact the Leafs and Flames wanted him isn’t that great of a stat anyway. Both franchises have 2 playoff series wins each in 20 years.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Panarin was 18th in league scoring when he left Columbus. Gaudreau was tied for 2nd in 2022 and Marner was 5th this year. I can’t think of a GM who lost players of that caliber for nothing especially when they were leaving the organization that drafted them.

Panarin in had 87 points in 79 games and was consistently PPG. Gaudreau had an extremely variable point total year to year. 49 points in 56 games the year before. And 58 in 79 the year prior.

And Marner 5th in points? OK, but does anyone think Marner is the 5th best skater in the league? He’s not even a too 10 player, being behind McDavid, MacKinnon, Makar, Draisaitl, Hughes, Hughes, Kaprizov, Kucherov, Matthews, Ovwchkin, Crosby, Pasternak, Connor. His team puts him at least third.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Let’s start with the coaches. Bill Peters was an absolutely terrible hire from the moment. It was a criticism I gave to Treliving directly at a season ticket holder event. It was clear he interviewed no one else for the job and Peters had completed 4 of the most mediocre years in Carolina. They buddied up at the Worlds and Treliving had tunnel vision on Peters as his coach. That hire turned into him having to hire Ward and piss away 2 possible playoff runs with Gaudreau/Tkachuk.

I noticed it with Jiri’s comment and I noticed it with yours. When it doubt let’s blame ownership. Sure it is an easy target and most people don’t like how Edwards strong armed the city into the arena deal or doesn’t want to tank but the Flames spend money. The Flames have the bloated management structure with multiple AGM’s and a POHO. They paid Sutter $8M to stay home. They gave Huberdeau the richest contract possible in the form of signing bonuses and buyout proofing the deal. But no they weren’t going to let him sign Gaudreau to a big deal or hire a half decent coach.


I have only brought up Brad being at the helm for losing 2 top 5 scorers for nothing in free agency. He did not sign that contract and it is what it is but not sure how that weakens anything? Does someone read that, disagree, and then decide the rest of the facts are irrelevant?

I look at what Treliving has done in Toronto and I see a lot of the same mistakes. The Leafs have no picks, very few prospects and will rely on free agency to make changes to their team. He is likely going to buy out one of those ridiculous 4 year deals handed out to Kampf and Reeves. He has 3 Dmen over 32 years old signed to 3-5 years more term.

I have no idea why Edwards wanted to keep him? Brad is probably good at managing up and selling the owners they were closer than they were. As for Toronto I think the media fawned over Brad after the “summer of Brad” and praised him for the moves that looked really impressive when you take away the fact those moves were made due to him fumbling our franchise players. The fact the Leafs and Flames wanted him isn’t that great of a stat anyway. Both franchises have 2 playoff series wins each in 20 years.

Well, again. You’re choosing take context out of the picture, looking for a throat to choke.

The Flames had an extensive coaching search two years prior. You may recall the much discussed Grouse Grind date between Conroy and Guluztzan. How much of a search was required the second time around? Who were the available candidates when Peter’s was hired? You’re drawing a pretty simple conclusion based on what was said publicly. Treliving’s and Peter’s win a World Championship together, so he, rightly or wrongly, felt he knew enough to make the hire.

Again, with Ward that was a very unusual situation where Peter’s history ended his tenure as an NHL coach. Ward was the interim coach, which is not unusual in the least when a coach is fired for actually doing his job let alone what peters did. Didn’t the team reel off 8 in a row after Ward became coach? Then, as previously mentioned, the pandemic hit. Why did the Flames take 3-4 weeks to name Ward the coach and remove interim?

And, yes, absolutely ownership deserves criticism. How many teams spend to the cap? 85%? 90? That’s like congratulating your kid for chewing their food. All the things you listed are not unique. What competitive team doesn’t havevAGM’s or POHO’s? In fact I don’t believe the Flames had a POHO after Burke.

You’re saying ownership is the easy target and then blaming Treliving for things he wasn’t responsible for, or at least not solely. Treliving was the far easier target. Do you honestly believe he wanted to hire Ward? Really? It was either Sutter or this guy who is going to cost us very little, relatively. Also, didn’t Ward only get a two year deal anyway?

And before you heap too much praise on Edwards, I wonder where Conroy and Huska rank on their relative pay scales.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Most/nearly all GM’s trade picks for depth players while in contention. That’s not a criticism that means much.

Absolutely. Other than CAR, the top contenders in the league (FLA, TOR, COL, VGK, TBL) have traded away most of their 1st and 2nd round picks for years. It’s the standard operating procedure in the league today, when contention windows only last 4-6 seasons.

The Avs, for instance, have no 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round picks in the 2025 or 2026 drafts. They didn’t make a 1st round pick in 2022 or 2024 either, and have traded away the player they drafted in the 1st round in 2023. You’ll see similar stories with the other contenders.

The Panthers traded away their 1st round pick in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, and 2026. The Lightning traded away their 1st round pick in 2020, 2021, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, and 2027.

The Stars are somewhat more conservative, having only traded away their 2023 1st, 2024 2nd, 2025 1st and 2nd, and 2026 1st. Same with the Oilers, who have only traded their 2021, 2022, and 2025 2nds, and 2023, 2025, and 2026 1sts.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Absolutely. Other than CAR, the top contenders in the league (FLA, TOR, COL, VGK, TBL) have traded away most of their 1st and 2nd round picks for years. It’s the standard operating procedure in the league today, when contention windows only last 4-6 seasons.

The Avs, for instance, have no 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round picks in the 2025 or 2026 drafts. They didn’t make a 1st round pick in 2022 or 2024 either, and have traded away the player they drafted in the 1st round in 2023. You’ll see similar stories with the other contenders.

The Panthers traded away their 1st round pick in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, and 2026. The Lightning traded away their 1st round pick in 2020, 2021, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, and 2027.

The Stars are somewhat more conservative, having only traded away their 2023 1st, 2024 2nd, 2025 1st and 2nd, and 2026 1st. Same with the Oilers, who have only traded their 2021, 2022, and 2025 2nds, and 2023, 2025, and 2026 1sts.

Exactly.

We can criticize Treliving, perhaps, on his ‘misread’ of whether or not the Flames were really contenders at that point but he was a lot closer to the team and the league than any of us ever were. I don’t think Treliving was dumb though. And he also wasn’t working alone. His read on the team would have been supported by many of the long term staff under him. Conroy, Snow, Pascal, Maloney, and, yes, ownership.

Anyway, I didn’t go back and read how Brad Treliving, who has been gone for two years, resurfaced in a thread about an Andrew Mangiapane trade, that happened a year ago. Suppose some folks are still triggered.