Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by mogg

Because of the genocide. It is because Israel is committing a genocide.

Are you honestly trying to claim that if the death toll was lower the world would be advocating for 3 & 4??

The rhetoric has been the exact same since Oct 8.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

No, but what would help is to put EQUAL pressure on both sides. It's always what Israel needs to do, not what Hamas needs to do.

I think the world would be better off if right from the get go of this conflict we all agreed to these four things:

1. Israel needs to reign back the violence, allow new government
2. Israel needs to provide more aid
3. Hamas must release the hostages
4. Hamas must surrender and allow new government

Can anyone disagree that points 1 & 2 have been focused on FAR MORE than 3 & 4?

Israel has made it clear that 1 & 2 will not happen without 3 & 4, so why is the world not pushing more for 3 &4?

It's frustrating this is the type of thing people get hung up on, and that we have to keep repeating the same stuff, and you still don't get it.

Israel has a democratically elected government, presumably acting on the will of the people and depends on the international community to support it's survival. They are necessarily held to a high standard because we enable them. With this support they choose to murder, starve, and commit genocide to innocent people, many of whom have never even had a chance to vote for their future, let alone imagine one. They provoke (West Bank), receive push back, and use that as justification for slaughter and theft of land and livelihood. They have, little by little, removed any sense of future, hope, survival and humanity of the Palestinian people.

Hamas threatens their own citizens with death if they are betrayed. Innocent citizens have no choice in rejecting them. No one disputes that Hamas is evil and is not helping and must go. So why do we need to discuss it? There is nothing to discuss. You want to, go ahead. I suspect you won't get any push back on those points.

So the issue is that everyone agrees Hamas must go. THe problem is that Israel has equated Palestinians with Hamas, which allows them to be murdered for the sake of killing terrorists. We know this, because they'll take random Palestinians and use them as human shields. They see them as the same. So Israel has chosen to destroy an entire people(no longer debatable) because of the actions of a few.

The question isn't why aren't we constantly condemning Hamas, but how can you not condemn Israel? Why is your biggest concern if we are being fair in our discussion where we point out a technologically superior military is still managing to kill so many innocents? It's almost like they want to. And that should be condemned no matter who is doing it. These are humans who have done nothing wrong but be born in the wrong spot.

[CroFlames]

EDIT: Fuzz said the exact same thing, but better.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Are you honestly trying to claim that if the death toll was lower the world would be advocating for 3 & 4??

The rhetoric has been the exact same since Oct 8.

Because history didn't start on Oct 7th. There has been unbalanced violence for decades.

[Fl4me5]

Guys, we've been over these same points for 2 years now. I think we can all agree we don't need history lessons.

And yes, Israel needs to be held to a higher standard, but that does not absolve Hamas of being held to ANY standard at all.

Fuzz - I absolutely condemn some of the actions of Israel and think that the violence needs to be stopped ASAP.

I came into this thread looking to have discourse about how we could have been better as a society. The way the world has reacted and continues to react is clearly not working, so I felt it worthwhile to explore how a different technique would have transpired, and what we can do moving forward to actually enact change.

If the global protests shared a combined anger towards Israel and Hamas, would we be further along now? Or is having Hamas cosplayers in the streets only vilifying Israel the best strategy?

Are we proud that Hamas is thanking our Prime Minister? Is that the standard we want to set in Canada?

Listen, I'm tired, frustrated, and depressed, and becoming more and more alienated as Jew in this world. We want REAL solutions and actions, not sunshine and butterfly utopian ideas.

I have reflected on this a lot over two years and have changed my perspective, partly in thanks to some of the posters here.

I know I am biased, and I know this is a biased idea, but I do truly believe that had we pressured both sides equally from the get go, we would be in a very different position in May 2025.

The irony is not lost on me, that I came in this thread and was immediately hounded with anti-Israel rhetoric and zero compassion/understanding of my point.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Guys, we've been over these same points for 2 years now. I think we can all agree we don't need history lessons.

And yes, Israel needs to be held to a higher standard, but that does not absolve Hamas of being held to ANY standard at all.

Fuzz - I absolutely condemn some of the actions of Israel and think that the violence needs to be stopped ASAP.

I came into this thread looking to have discourse about how we could have been better as a society. The way the world has reacted and continues to react is clearly not working, so I felt it worthwhile to explore how a different technique would have transpired, and what we can do moving forward to actually enact change.

If the global protests shared a combined anger towards Israel and Hamas, would we be further along now? Or is having Hamas cosplayers in the streets only vilifying Israel the best strategy?

Are we proud that Hamas is thanking our Prime Minister? Is that the standard we want to set in Canada?

Listen, I'm tired, frustrated, and depressed, and becoming more and more alienated as Jew in this world. We want REAL solutions and actions, not sunshine and butterfly utopian ideas.

I have reflected on this a lot over two years and have changed my perspective, partly in thanks to some of the posters here.

I know I am biased, and I know this is a biased idea, but I do truly believe that had we pressured both sides equally from the get go, we would be in a very different position in May 2025.

The irony is not lost on me, that I came in this thread and was immediately hounded with anti-Israel rhetoric and zero compassion/understanding of my point.

Would you agree that to an outsider (neither Israeli or Palestinian) it would appear that a there is plan by the Israeli government, backed by the most powerful ally, to remove Palestinians from Gaza because they deem their presence a danger to Israel?

Blocking aid to the region, bombardment and destruction, Bibi's rhetoric, Trump blathering about redeveloping Gaza, etc. The only roadblock is the people there. Doesn't really seem like it's about the hostages.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Would you agree that to an outsider (neither Israeli or Palestinian) it would appear that a there is plan by the Israeli government, backed by the most powerful ally, to remove Palestinians from Gaza because they deem their presence a danger to Israel?

Blocking aid to the region, bombardment and destruction, Bibi's rhetoric, Trump blathering about redeveloping Gaza, etc. The only roadblock is the people there. Doesn't really seem like it's about the hostages.

I can certainly see how someone can come to that conclusion, although I would argue it seems a little conspiratorial.

Are you implying Oct 7 was an inside job? Do you think Israel wanted to do this had Oct 7 not happened?

[mogg]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Are you honestly trying to claim that if the death toll was lower the world would be advocating for 3 & 4??

The rhetoric has been the exact same since Oct 8.

The world is definitely advocating for the return of the 59 remaining hostages. It’s just that Israel has razed pretty much all human settlement in Gaza, is intentionally starving hundreds of thousands of people, preventing even baby food from entering the territory, and intends to forcibly, permanently remove whomever it doesn’t manage to kill, to be replaced by Israeli settlers. You seem to have lost all sense of proportion here.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by mogg

The world is definitely advocating for the return of the 59 remaining hostages. It’s just that Israel has razed pretty much all human settlement in Gaza, is intentionally starving hundreds of thousands of people, preventing even baby food from entering the territory, and intends to forcibly, permanently remove whomever it doesn’t manage to kill, to be replaced by Israeli settlers. You seem to have lost all sense of proportion here.

Since we are on the topic of proportion, please show me how the world has equally advocated for the hostages and for ceasefire... seems a little disproportionate to me.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

I can certainly see how someone can come to that conclusion, although I would argue it seems a little conspiratorial.

Are you implying Oct 7 was an inside job? Do you think Israel wanted to do this had Oct 7 not happened?

Not a conspiracy.

I think advanced militaries have plans for every eventuality. Oct 7 was an event deemed significant enough for this response.

To answer your second question, public opinion polls in Israel show high support for the destruction of Gaza and for the mistreatment of civilians (i.e.: blocking international aid). Were they waiting for an excuse to invade? Judge for yourself.

[mogg]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

I can certainly see how someone can come to that conclusion, although I would argue it seems a little conspiratorial.

Are you implying Oct 7 was an inside job? Do you think Israel wanted to do this had Oct 7 not happened?

Have you listened to the lunatics propping up Netanyahu’s government? This is not conspiracy theory. It is their explicit, stated objective.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by mogg

Have you listened to the lunatics propping up Netanyahu’s government? This is not conspiracy theory. It is their explicit, stated objective.

Agreed, they are lunatics, and not supported by the majority of Israelis.

Just like every country on earth has fringe extremists.

Not sure what this has to do with my point of how we can be better moving forward. Seems like this thread just wants to go in circles beating a dead horse.

[mogg]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Since we are on the topic of proportion, please show me how the world has equally advocated for the hostages and for ceasefire... seems a little disproportionate to me.

Given the disproportionate reality on the ground, yes, one would hope the response would mirror this.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

No, but what would help is to put EQUAL pressure on both sides. It's always what Israel needs to do, not what Hamas needs to do.

I think the world would be better off if right from the get go of this conflict we all agreed to these four things:

1. Israel needs to reign back the violence, allow new government
2. Israel needs to provide more aid
3. Hamas must release the hostages
4. Hamas must surrender and allow new government

Can anyone disagree that points 1 & 2 have been focused on FAR MORE than 3 & 4?

Israel has made it clear that 1 & 2 will not happen without 3 & 4, so why is the world not pushing more for 3 &4?

Are you honestly trying to claim that if 3 & 4 happened, that Israel would stop 1 & 2? Because The West Bank is a thing, and Israel continues to bulldoze, murder, create illegal settlements, and take land, so I'm not sure how this point even makes sense other than to create a false pretence.

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Guys, we've been over these same points for 2 years now. I think we can all agree we don't need history lessons.

And yes, Israel needs to be held to a higher standard, but that does not absolve Hamas of being held to ANY standard at all.

Fuzz - I absolutely condemn some of the actions of Israel and think that the violence needs to be stopped ASAP.

I came into this thread looking to have discourse about how we could have been better as a society. The way the world has reacted and continues to react is clearly not working, so I felt it worthwhile to explore how a different technique would have transpired, and what we can do moving forward to actually enact change.

If the global protests shared a combined anger towards Israel and Hamas, would we be further along now? Or is having Hamas cosplayers in the streets only vilifying Israel the best strategy?

Are we proud that Hamas is thanking our Prime Minister? Is that the standard we want to set in Canada?

Listen, I'm tired, frustrated, and depressed, and becoming more and more alienated as Jew in this world. We want REAL solutions and actions, not sunshine and butterfly utopian ideas.

I have reflected on this a lot over two years and have changed my perspective, partly in thanks to some of the posters here.

I know I am biased, and I know this is a biased idea, but I do truly believe that had we pressured both sides equally from the get go, we would be in a very different position in May 2025.

The irony is not lost on me, that I came in this thread and was immediately hounded with anti-Israel rhetoric and zero compassion/understanding of my point.

Completely disagree with the bolded. This is the first time I can remember that the world (sans one country) seems to be rallying against Israel and talking about accountability instead of the arm waving world politicians usually do. It's just more clear now that Israel doesn't give a #### . That's the reason you're not seeing progress - because you need a willing participant in Israel, and they're more interested in continuing to murder innocent people.

And sorry, I lost my compassion for the IDF and the "we have a right to defend ourselves" crowd when tens of thousands of Palestinians are being systematically slaughtered. You'll have to excuse me for thinking that "the only democracy in the Middle East" and the bastion of human rights in the Middle East, whose people have endured the worst atrocities this world has ever seen, should be held to a higher standard than a terrorist group.

[mogg]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Agreed, they are lunatics, and not supported by the majority of Israelis.

Just like every country on earth has fringe extremists.

Not sure what this has to do with my point of how we can be better moving forward. Seems like this thread just wants to go in circles beating a dead horse.

My point is their objectives are being implemented. The government’s policy is that of the fringe extremists propping it up.

[Fuzz]

I guess I'm just not sure what further pressure you want people to put on Hamas. We've declared them a terrorist organization. We've repeated the hostages must be returned. Israel has been given a ####load of latitude, the likes of which would have seen many other countries sanctioned for similar behaviour. We condemn protests that glorify Hamas. We(well, some of us) continue to draw a firm separation between Hamas and the people of Palestine. You seem to have a much more fuzzy line, a position which I suggest is a moral failure and a cause for the continued war and is the same tactic Hamas supporters use to align Palestinians with them.


So what more do you want to see that does not further harm innocents?

[mogg]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Seems like this thread just wants to go in circles beating a dead horse.

Yes I think we all feel that way.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I guess I'm just not sure what further pressure you want people to put on Hamas. We've declared them a terrorist organization. We've repeated the hostages must be returned. Israel has been given a ####load of latitude, the likes of which would have seen many other countries sanctioned for similar behaviour. We condemn protests that glorify Hamas. We(well, some of us) continue to draw a firm separation between Hamas and the people of Palestine. You seem to have a much more fuzzy line, a position which I suggest is a moral failure and a cause for the continued war and is the same tactic Hamas supporters use to align Palestinians with them.


So what more do you want to see that does not further harm innocents?

I'm not sure, that's why I brought it up for discussion. I guess I'm just working through a thought exercise.

I do think that the world's reaction has further emboldened Israel. You're right, they don't give a ####, and I think a big part of that is because no one gives a #### about them.

I'm just hypothetically thinking if somehow the main goal initially was eradication of Hamas, acceptance that there would be casualties, and then sanction Israel to high hell as punishment after. Maybe, just maybe, there would have been a better outcome? I understand this is cold-hearted. But so is everything happening there continuously. A proverbial ripping of the band-aid?

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

No joke, it actually would. When I read through the thread, my interpretation is that there's a disproportionate criticism of the Israeli side vs the other.

There is disproportion for sure. I don’t think I’ve seen such cruel disproportion in my lifetime.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

I'm not sure, that's why I brought it up for discussion. I guess I'm just working through a thought exercise.

I do think that the world's reaction has further emboldened Israel. You're right, they don't give a ####, and I think a big part of that is because no one gives a #### about them.

I'm just hypothetically thinking if somehow the main goal initially was eradication of Hamas, acceptance that there would be casualties, and then sanction Israel to high hell as punishment after. Maybe, just maybe, there would have been a better outcome? I understand this is cold-hearted. But so is everything happening there continuously. A proverbial ripping of the band-aid?

Nobody gives a #### about them? Seriously?

Israel literally has a blank check from the most powerful nation in the world. The world literally gave them a country by taking that land away from another group of people. Billions and billions in aid. By far the most advanced military in the region and one of the best intelligence agencies in the world built from that aid. And you're saying nobody gives a #### about Israel?

Israel has gotten more grace and latitude than any other country would be getting. Just because they're finally being held accountable for their actions, doesn't mean nobody gives a #### about them.

I also see that you continue to ignore my comments about the West Bank. Must be a lot more simple to construct your point when you ignore that.