Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Torture

Since when the #### is Manitoba number one at anything? I don't like it.

Manitoba is the number 1 place people don't want to visit.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If you care about education and child welfare, you should take 15 minutes out of your life to google and learn about the long-term effects of school disruptions. I’d link to the hosts of studies around the globe that have been done on this, but I’m kinda busy this morning. Maybe later.

Sure, it sucked for kids but it's not like there was an alternative. I remember reading many stories of teacher shortages because they were all sick with covid. While you are looking for stories, you can also look up the long term brain damage caused by repeated infections and the devastating effects of long covid.

It was never as simple as deciding to just keep schools open. And if that was the ultimate priority, stopping unnecessary gatherings and requiring masking "for the children" would have been a choice to make. Nobody made that choice. Which meant tough decisions on in person learning. And that doesn't even get into the realities around hospital capacity. So banging on this drum of the damage caused by lost weeks of education is a silly distraction from what the facts were.

Want less of that next time? Major changes in pandemic handling need to be made, and it sure as #### doesn't revolve around ignoring vaccines and catering to the most selfish slice of the population.

[The Big Chill]

Were teachers and school boards even the ones deciding if schools were open? I thought that direction was coming from the provincial gov’t, but I can’t remember for sure now.

[Yamer]

I mean, isn't the damage regarding disruptions to learning the point? It would be like if the Mall Santa & His Helpers Union strikes in July.

There are inadequacies in the education system, and the only time you're going to get any attention and traction is during the school year. Yeah, you're probably not going to get all of the public on board, but what's the alternative?

In a serious society we would be rallying for both sides to come to the table and get s### done for the sake of the most affected: students. Instead, we'd rather point fingers at the teachers for being selfish and looking out for themselves.

The same thing happened during the recent postal strike, and it's just so tiring seeing the same played out nonsense that workers are looking out for their own interests when it's just as likely they are looking for an enhanced system that better enables them to provide proper service.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Manitoba is the number 1 place people don't want to visit.

Even fictional characters... lol

[CliffFletcher]

There was a wealth of data from early in the pandemic that school closures harmed children and schools were not significant sources of spread. It was ignored by North Americans who politicized the pandemic.

Lessons From Europe, Where Cases Are Rising But Schools Are Open

Across Europe, schools and child care centers are staying open even as much of the continent reports rising coronavirus cases, and even as many businesses and gathering places are shut or restricted. Countries such as France, the United Kingdom, Germany and Italy appear to be following the emerging evidence that schools have not been major centers of transmission of the virus, especially for young children. And experts say these nations are also demonstrating a commitment to avoiding the worst impacts of the pandemic on children.

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/13/93415...hools-are-open

Four years later the costs have been tallied.

What the Data Says About Pandemic School Closures, Four Years Later

The more time students spent in remote instruction, the further they fell behind. And, experts say, extended closures did little to stop the spread of Covid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/18/u...ures-data.html

We had choices. We ####ed up. Few experts who have studied the data disagree. From the NYT article:

Though the next health crisis may have different particulars, with different risk calculations, the consequences of closing schools are now well established, experts say.

In the future, infectious disease experts said, they hoped decisions would be guided more by epidemiological data as it emerged, taking into account the trade-offs.

“Could we have used data to better guide our decision making? Yes,” said Dr. Uzma N. Hasan, division chief of pediatric infectious diseases at RWJBarnabas Health in Livingston, N.J. “Fear should not guide our decision making.”

Closing schools again for even 2-3 weeks next fall will do more damage to the learning and welfare of Alberta children, who in many cases are still suffering the long-term consequences from the covid losses. If you think that the long-term gains to educational outcomes from increased salary or hiring would offset those losses, show your work. Be the science-based adults and leave the simplistic appeals to emotion to the populist right.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There was a wealth of data from early in the pandemic that school closures harmed children and schools were not significant sources of spread. It was ignored by North Americans who politicized the pandemic.



Four years later the costs have been tallied.



We had choices. We ####ed up. Few experts who have studied the data disagree. From the NYT article:



Closing schools again for even 2-3 weeks next fall will do more damage to the learning and welfare of Alberta children, who in many cases are still suffering the long-term consequences from the covid losses. If you think that the long-term gains to educational outcomes from increased salary or hiring would offset those losses, show your work. Be the science-based adults and leave the simplistic appeals to emotion to the populist right.

I totally agree.

So it seems to me maybe the Government should take this seriously, and for once show some good faith when negotiating with a union in this province.

This isn't a 1 sided issue. If Teachers strike, the blame isn't solely on them.
This Government has shown very little interested in dealing fairly with public servants and unions. If this gets to a strike, it'll be both sides who need to shoulder that blame.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I totally agree.

So it seems to me maybe the Government should take this seriously, and for once show some good faith when negotiating with a union in this province.

This isn't a 1 sided issue. If Teachers strike, the blame isn't solely on them.
This Government has shown very little interested in dealing fairly with public servants and unions. If this gets to a strike, it'll be both sides who need to shoulder that blame.

I have no desire to defend this government for anything, but they did just do a deal with the nurses union that was approved by 90% (plus) of the membership.

[5abi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If you care about education and child welfare, you should take 15 minutes out of your life to google and learn about the long-term effects of school disruptions. I’d link to the hosts of studies around the globe that have been done on this, but I’m kinda busy this morning. Maybe later.

So teachers should just accept what they are given?

the Right is craze yah

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If you care about education and child welfare, you should take 15 minutes out of your life to google and learn about the long-term effects of school disruptions. I’d link to the hosts of studies around the globe that have been done on this, but I’m kinda busy this morning. Maybe later.

I think they will follow Sask and Cancel football, volleyball, and Soccer by refusing to coach. No academic damage but puts pressure on the system.

Basically stop all unpaid volunteer activities.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Slava

I have no desire to defend this government for anything, but they did just do a deal with the nurses union that was approved by 90% (plus) of the membership.

They sure did, not sure anyone would say that the government acted in good faith throughout the entire process in getting there though.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by 5abi

So teachers should just accept what they are given?

the Right is craze yah

Do nurses and police have to just accept what they’re given? Teachers should be brought under the same essential services agreement.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Closing schools again for even 2-3 weeks next fall will do more damage to the learning and welfare of Alberta children, who in many cases are still suffering the long-term consequences from the covid losses. If you think that the long-term gains to educational outcomes from increased salary or hiring would offset those losses, show your work. Be the science-based adults and leave the simplistic appeals to emotion to the populist right.

Yeah I don’t know about that. While it’s certainly not ideal for the teachers to be off for a few weeks I don’t think the impact is going to be the doomsday scenario that you’re making it out to be. Teachers have gone on strike in the past and you haven’t really put anything forward that suggests those strikes had a massive impact on education outcomes. Comparing a 2-3 week strike to what happened during COVID isn’t a serious argument. COVID caught everyone off guard and forced an immediate stoppage while school boards and teachers had to create a new virtual learning game plan on the fly that ended up lasting for months on and off. Not even remotely(no pun) the same circumstances.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do nurses and police have to just accept what they’re given?

No, they don’t.

Teachers should be brought under the same essential services agreement.

Firstly an essential services agreement doesn’t prevent a strike, it simply limits the scope. Secondly it’s going to be hard to argue that individual school boards are an essential service when people have the option to send their kids to different schools, homeschool, etc..

[CliffFletcher]

I could spend another 15 mins looking up studies on the impact of school disruptions on learning, including the wealth of data showing the learning loss from North America’s unusually long summer breaks compared to the rest of the developed world. Or I could provide a bunch of links to the danger to at-risk children of not having a safe place to go to every day. But it’s not worth the effort with people who don’t care enough to look up the readily-accessible information themselves.

Vibes > empirical fact isn’t just a failing of the populist right.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There was a wealth of data from early in the pandemic that school closures harmed children and schools were not significant sources of spread. It was ignored by North Americans who politicized the pandemic.

Four years later the costs have been tallied.

We had choices. We ####ed up. Few experts who have studied the data disagree. From the NYT article:

Closing schools again for even 2-3 weeks next fall will do more damage to the learning and welfare of Alberta children, who in many cases are still suffering the long-term consequences from the covid losses. If you think that the long-term gains to educational outcomes from increased salary or hiring would offset those losses, show your work. Be the science-based adults and leave the simplistic appeals to emotion to the populist right.

You don't think smaller class sizes and a larger pool of teachers would be beneficial in reducing transmission and providing more flexibility to continue in class education due to teacher illness shortages?



I'm not sure I need to show my work, this should be common sense.

[woob]

It's always hilarious to me that people essentially think teachers need to get bent when it comes to raises and salaries, and yet we talk about many societal issues which often can be attributed to poor or lackluster education. Yes, there are other factors that contribute to education quality (class sizes, policy, schools) but teachers are the ones "delivering the product."

These are the people who educate our children and have to deal with the ####show of education policy and class sizes in this province. The fact that we always try and nickle and dime them on salary must be such a demoralizing experience.

And then we have Cliff yammering on about education loss during a pandemic, like that decision solely rests on the shoulders of the teachers or something (I'm sure he doesn't fully think that, but still). I can compartmentalize the fact that having that education gap may have not been the best decision, while also wanting teachers to be well paid and fully supported.

It's just so typical of this province.

[Fuzz]

You also can't ignore that a lot of learning loss was also because so many kids were sick, repeatedly, for so long. They didn't just lose education hours because of school closure, they lost it because of a pandemic. "Keeping schools open" is a simplistic slogan that may make you feel better, but it in no way reflects the reality of the time:

Just two days into a return to in-person classes, the chair of Edmonton Public Schools said officials were preparing in case classes and schools have to move online because of staff shortages due to COVID-19.

On Tuesday, 494 teachers and 262 educational assistants were absent. The board said that was a total for all causes, and an exact number of absences because of coronavirus was not provided.

Seven teaching positions were unfilled, despite 29 emergency replacement teachers being dispatched to cover classes.


About 1,500 students, or 1.44 per cent, were absent Monday because of COVID-19. Another 1,500 or so were absent due to "general illness."

https://www.ctvnews.ca/edmonton/arti...udents-absent/


Like, honestly, WTF do you expect should have happened?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I could spend another 15 mins looking up studies on the impact of school disruptions on learning, including the wealth of data showing the learning loss from North America’s unusually long summer breaks compared to the rest of the developed world. Or I could provide a bunch of links to the danger to at-risk children of not having a safe place to go to every day. But it’s not worth the effort with people who don’t care enough to look up the readily-accessible information themselves.

Vibes > empirical fact isn’t just a failing of the populist right.

You keep changing your argument while at the same time asking people to prove you wrong on something you haven’t provided real proof of.

You went from being concerned about the educational impacts of a strike to being concerned about the social impacts on at risk youth who need the safe space which is an absolutely absurd position to take in this context since a) it’s not the jobs of teachers to protect students in their domestic lives(the UCP has made that clear with some controversial legislation aimed at forcing schools to out gay kids to their parents) and b) those students still have to go home to those unsafe homes once the bell rings anyways so a strike really doesn’t change much in that regard.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by woob

It's always hilarious to me that people essentially think teachers need to get bent when it comes to raises and salaries, and yet we talk about many societal issues which often can be attributed to poor or lackluster education. Yes, there are other factors that contribute to education quality (class sizes, policy, schools) but teachers are the ones "delivering the product."

These are the people who educate our children and have to deal with the ####show of education policy and class sizes in this province. The fact that we always try and nickle and dime them on salary must be such a demoralizing experience.

And then we have Cliff yammering on about education loss during a pandemic, like that decision solely rests on the shoulders of the teachers or something (I'm sure he doesn't fully think that, but still). I can compartmentalize the fact that having that education gap may have not been the best decision, while also wanting teachers to be well paid and fully supported.

It's just so typical of this province.

Sure, but is there a middle ground here? No one is saying that the teachers are terrible and that this is all on them, so take what you get. The argument is that having them strike and close schools has a negative impact on the students, as evidenced by Covid.

And yeah, salary negotiations can suck. It's not fun and it's also part of the deal for most employees in some capacity.