[Trade] Sens trade Norris and Bernard Docker to Sabres for Cozens, Gilbert, 2026 2nd

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You go by the words of a lying executive if you want. I'm going by actions.

The actions point to a retool pretty obviously. They traded for 25ish yr old NHL players instead of picks and prospects, then signed UFAs.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Best rookie goalie in the league? probably best in the last decade plus

I'm pretty sure Shesterkin has only been in the NHL for 6 years.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You go by the words of a lying executive if you want. I'm going by actions.

I am going by actions as well. Rebuilding teams don't trade for 26 year old players with term and another 26 year old.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Redrum

The actions point to a retool pretty obviously. They traded for 25ish yr old NHL players instead of picks and prospects, then signed UFAs.

And traded a 2nd rounder for more 25ish players

It’s kind of both to be honest …… trying to rebuild with 24/25 year old outcasts / underperformers (almost like an expansion draft) but not a true rebuild where you build up your own drafted core slowly

I’m sure it will turn out great trying to expedite a proper rebuild

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

That is the whole point. To say right now that Cozens doesn't have the potential to be a #1 center is way off. Do you need the top player in the league at center or a top 10-20 center? IMO you need at least 1 center that is in that range. After that why can't you have an elite Dman and Goalie to go with that top 15 or so center and build a contending team? IMO you can.

The Flames seem to love to draft 10-20 OV, we will always be loaded on the wing if we draft well and keep drafting in that range. Lots of elite centers go outside the top 10 picks but most go early.

Trading a good young winger and a pick for a good young center was worth it and a miss IMO by Conroy. Right now, when healthy this team has too many wingers in the top 9 anyways and Cozens in allows us to look at Kadri out.

lol @ comparing Cozen to Olympians.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You go by the words of a lying executive if you want. I'm going by actions.

Rebuilding teams don’t bring in five or six 25-30 year old veterans early in the rebuild. What the Flames have done the last three seasons looks nothing like what OTT, CHI, SJ, ANA etc have done in their recent rebuilds.

The Flames had a rebuild offer on the table (rumoured to be Necas + 1st +) when they moved Tkachuk. Conroy said they turned it down because that’s not the route the franchise wanted to go. Instead they brought in a 29 year old, a 28 year old, and signed a 31 year old to a 7 year deal.

When that didn’t work they traded a bunch of pending UFAs who didn’t want to be here. The only player with term they traded was a 34 year old.

If you call that a rebuild, we’ll have to come with a different word to describe what OTT, CHI, SJ, ANA etc have done.

[The Cobra]

Why does it matter what you call it?

It is part rebuild, part retooling.

But Calgary will generally sign older UFA's to be if they can agree on a contract, otherwise they will trade them.

[Finger Cookin]

Calling it a rebuild vs a retool vs a rejig vs a renovation is 1000% important, just as the discussion about what constitutes a player being a True #1 center vs an elite #1 center vs a generational #1 center is 1000% important.

If it wasn't for semantics, 80% of the posts on this forum wouldn't exist.

[Wastedyouth]

OOOOOOh the REBUILD definition conversation again.

It had been too long since it last occured.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Redrum

The actions point to a retool pretty obviously. They traded for 25ish yr old NHL players instead of picks and prospects, then signed UFAs.

Instead of?

They traded 31-year-old Toffoli for a 3rd and 25-year-old Sharangovich.
They traded Zadorov for a 3rd and a 5th.
They traded Lindholm for a 1st, Brzustewicz, Jurmo, and a cap dump in Kuzmenko.
They traded Tanev for a 2nd, a conditional 3rd, and Grushnikov.
They traded Hanifin for a 1st, a 3rd, and Miromanov.
They traded 34-year-old Markstrom for a 1st and 24-year-old Kevin Bahl.
They traded Mangiapane for a 2nd.

All this within a 12-month span. Seven NHL regulars out, in exchange for three regulars coming back (one of whom has been traded away since), plus three prospects, a minor-leaguer, and eight draft picks (not including the conditional pick from the Tanev deal).

Apparently this is some usage of the word ‘instead of’ that I am not familiar with.

Meanwhile, the Sharks, who by unanimous agreement are rebuilding, signed that same Tyler Toffoli (at age 32) to a long-term UFA deal at $6 million per year. At the same time they acquired 29-year-old Alexander Wennberg, 25-year-old Timothy Liljegren, 27-year-old Carl Grundstrom, and 32-year-old Barclay Goodrow, to list only established NHLers that they added through trade or free agency in the 2024 off-season alone.

What makes one of these a rebuild and not the other? John Bean's PR spin doesn't count for anything. He isn't even in hockey operations.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Rebuilding teams don’t bring in five or six 25-30 year old veterans early in the rebuild. What the Flames have done the last three seasons looks nothing like what OTT, CHI, SJ, ANA etc have done in their recent rebuilds.

As I just pointed out, the Sharks just brought in Toffoli, Wennberg, and Goodrow, last off-season alone.

Some people don't seem to grasp that you have to ice a team and meet the salary floor every single year. You don't just get to trade away all your veterans for picks and then park the franchise until the picks are ready to play.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I am going by actions as well. Rebuilding teams don't trade for 26 year old players with term and another 26 year old.

They certainly do. I gave the example of San Jose last off-season.

[BrownDrake]

I find it kind of amusing that the rebuild team believes the final product that will win a cup in 5 years will consist solely of players aged 23 to 28 years old.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

They certainly do. I gave the example of San Jose last off-season.

Sharks picked 3 and 1 overall. They are coming out of the rebuild now.

Flames haven’t even started. Every trade you mentioned was forced on the team. Not a strategy.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by BrownDrake

I find it kind of amusing that the rebuild team believes the final product that will win a cup in 5 years will consist solely of players aged 23 to 28 years old.

Too many players on the wrong side of 25 in that scenario.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Sharks picked 3 and 1 overall. They are coming out of the rebuild now.

Flames haven’t even started. Every trade you mentioned was forced on the team. Not a strategy.

Every rebuild is forced on every rebuilding team.

No team has ever unilaterally just decided to enter a rebuild.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by BrownDrake

I find it kind of amusing that the rebuild team believes the final product that will win a cup in 5 years will consist solely of players aged 23 to 28 years old.

Vets with winning experience can be added after you've established your 23-28 yo core.

Probably the easiest component to add to a team.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by BrownDrake

I find it kind of amusing that the rebuild team believes the final product that will win a cup in 5 years will consist solely of players aged 23 to 28 years old.

It's a lot easier to add vets to a young core than the other way around like the Flames are trying to do.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Sharks picked 3 and 1 overall. They are coming out of the rebuild now.

The Sharks have a .326 winning percentage this year. They are not even beginning to come out of the rebuild. Yet they are signing veteran players in their thirties, some of them to big-money contracts with term. Why? Because they have to ice a team until their youth movement is ready to graduate – which does not happen all at once. Every rebuilding team does this.

You are drawing distinctions that do not exist between what the Flames are actually doing and what you imagine an ideal rebuilding team would do. No team has ever conducted a rebuild in the way that you think it should be done, except possibly the 1901 Montreal Shamrocks.

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Flames haven’t even started. Every trade you mentioned was forced on the team. Not a strategy.

They could have traded for established players only. Nobody forced them to take eight picks, three prospects, a minor-leaguer, and only three regular NHLers.

I was, in fact, responding to a poster who accused the Flames of NOT trading for picks and prospects, and I showed very clearly that most of the assets they got in that trade were, in fact, picks and prospects. Apparently you completely missed the point that we were discussing. You're good at that.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Rebuilding teams don’t bring in five or six 25-30 year old veterans early in the rebuild. What the Flames have done the last three seasons looks nothing like what OTT, CHI, SJ, ANA etc have done in their recent rebuilds.

The Flames had a rebuild offer on the table (rumoured to be Necas + 1st +) when they moved Tkachuk. Conroy said they turned it down because that’s not the route the franchise wanted to go. Instead they brought in a 29 year old, a 28 year old, and signed a 31 year old to a 7 year deal.

When that didn’t work they traded a bunch of pending UFAs who didn’t want to be here. The only player with term they traded was a 34 year old.

If you call that a rebuild, we’ll have to come with a different word to describe what OTT, CHI, SJ, ANA etc have done.

They obviously weren't rebuilding when they made the Huberdeau/Kadri transactions and no one says they were. It basically started last year.

But it's not a tank - its a rebuild with the acquisition of promising younger players and a lot of picks (though not top 5 picks).