[Trade] Sens trade Norris and Bernard Docker to Sabres for Cozens, Gilbert, 2026 2nd

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Vet NHLers: Kadri, Weegar, Backlund, Huberdeau, Coleman, and maybe Andersson
Young NHLers: Wolf, Coronato, Zary, Frost, Farabee, Bahl
Close prospects: Parekh, Brzustewicz, Gridin, Battaglia, Basha, etc.

However you want to slice and dice it, the Flames have a decent core to work with with a few top tier talent players in there and a number of boom/bust prospects from 2024 that could really surprise us.

There is a small chance that the Flames get into the top 10 of the draft this season and maybe they bottom out next season as the other tanking teams of the West stop being so horrible but there is also a good chance that we are picking in the 20s this draft and the teens next draft.

With that in mind, if you want to build around this core of young NHLers and prospects then you have to swing for the fence on a few key pieces. Cozens fit the bill for one of those gaps as a potential first line C with a right shot.

Now that this ship has sailed, the Flames should be looking for the next opportunity to consolidate a few good assets into a single great asset that addresses the biggest need in the team.

Yeah none of those vets are worth building around. It’s embarrassing to think so. They are all past their prime.

The team needs to rebuild but as we know Edwards won’t allow that.

Cozen isn’t the elite talent to take this team over the top. Team needs actual elite top line talent.

And Dino with his usual Wolf and post in another thread saying wolf isn’t the reason we are good.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

The team needs to rebuild but as we know Edwards won’t allow that

What a new, unique take. Care to elaborate?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Groot

What a new, unique take. Care to elaborate?

There is a Edwards 30th ranked owner thread already.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Vet NHLers: Kadri, Weegar, Backlund, Huberdeau, Coleman, and maybe Andersson
Young NHLers: Wolf, Coronato, Zary, Frost, Farabee, Bahl
Close prospects: Parekh, Brzustewicz, Gridin, Battaglia, Basha, etc.

However you want to slice and dice it, the Flames have a decent core to work with with a few top tier talent players in there and a number of boom/bust prospects from 2024 that could really surprise us.

There is a small chance that the Flames get into the top 10 of the draft this season and maybe they bottom out next season as the other tanking teams of the West stop being so horrible but there is also a good chance that we are picking in the 20s this draft and the teens next draft.

With that in mind, if you want to build around this core of young NHLers and prospects then you have to swing for the fence on a few key pieces. Cozens fit the bill for one of those gaps as a potential first line C with a right shot.

Now that this ship has sailed, the Flames should be looking for the next opportunity to consolidate a few good assets into a single great asset that addresses the biggest need in the team.

I dont see the top tier players.

Weegar is the only one to me. He would be a very strong top pairing D on any team and is probably the only player we have that slots top 32 in his respective position across the league.

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Vet NHLers: Kadri, Weegar, Backlund, Huberdeau, Coleman, and maybe Andersson
Young NHLers: Wolf, Coronato, Zary, Frost, Farabee, Bahl
Close prospects: Parekh, Brzustewicz, Gridin, Battaglia, Basha, etc.

However you want to slice and dice it, the Flames have a decent core to work with with a few top tier talent players in there and a number of boom/bust prospects from 2024 that could really surprise us.

There is a small chance that the Flames get into the top 10 of the draft this season and maybe they bottom out next season as the other tanking teams of the West stop being so horrible but there is also a good chance that we are picking in the 20s this draft and the teens next draft.

With that in mind, if you want to build around this core of young NHLers and prospects then you have to swing for the fence on a few key pieces. Cozens fit the bill for one of those gaps as a potential first line C with a right shot.

Now that this ship has sailed, the Flames should be looking for the next opportunity to consolidate a few good assets into a single great asset that addresses the biggest need in the team.

I think have different definitions for rebuild and retool because I don't understand how the new players brought in through trade and draft/development impact if it is a retool or rebuild. Both retool and rebuild bring in new players, so to me the difference is all about the players kept from the start of the process.

Like I wouldn't say San Jose is retooling because they have players like Celebrini and Smith to build around, along with a strong prospect pipeline. I see them as rebuilding because they have kept very little of their original team, and their remaining original players (Couture, Vlasic, ...) are not going to be impactful on their completed team.

[Harry Lime]

Give Coronato a year or two to get those rookie player jitters out. I think ends up top tier.

Along with weegar, parehk and wolf, you are only missing an impact center. I would draft high risk high reward all day til we get one.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

Like I wouldn't say San Jose is retooling because they have players like Celebrini and Smith to build around, along with a strong prospect pipeline. I see them as rebuilding because they have kept very little of their original team, and their remaining original players (Couture, Vlasic, ...) are not going to be impactful on their completed team.

Here are the remaining players from the last Flames team to make the playoffs:

Rasmus Andersson
Mikael Backlund
Blake Coleman
Daniel Vladar

That's the list. This is a rebuild.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

I think have different definitions for rebuild and retool because I don't understand how the new players brought in through trade and draft/development impact if it is a retool or rebuild. Both retool and rebuild bring in new players, so to me the difference is all about the players kept from the start of the process.

Like I wouldn't say San Jose is retooling because they have players like Celebrini and Smith to build around, along with a strong prospect pipeline. I see them as rebuilding because they have kept very little of their original team, and their remaining original players (Couture, Vlasic, ...) are not going to be impactful on their completed team.

I believe the main difference that most people agree upon is this:
Rebuild = sell everything, bottom the team out of talent, get many drafts where you are in the top 5 or better.
Retool = roll over your roster on the fly and try to establish a new core of players as you phase out the old core. No blow up of the roster and no bottoming out for ~5 years.

San Jose is 100% a rebuild team. They sold off all of their old core, were barely fielding an NHL roster and now have multiple drafts where they are either selecting #1OA or top 5. I believe last summer they thought they were going to pull out of their rebuild but are still a bottom feeder with another disasterous season.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Yeah none of those vets are worth building around. It’s embarrassing to think so. They are all past their prime.

The team needs to rebuild but as we know Edwards won’t allow that.

Cozen isn’t the elite talent to take this team over the top. Team needs actual elite top line talent.

And Dino with his usual Wolf and post in another thread saying wolf isn’t the reason we are good.

Duh. You do not build around the vets. You build around the future core of players. The vets become supporting players as you bring on the new core. The new core has some good pieces. #1G, #1D, #1RW and some potentially solid supporting pieces.

Cozens has the potential to be a #1C. Maybe he would cap out as a #2 but at 24 you don't know that he won't become a #1C in the next few years given the opportunity on a non-Sabres team. The early data shows that you might be wrong in your assessment of the player and situation. Go figure.

Honestly, I think Conroy was trying to take the team into a full rebuild last season as he shipped out a huge number of core members of the roster but there are a few things that happened:
1) He is unable to move vets like Kadri and Huberdeau thanks to big contracts and NMCs from Treliving.
2) The collective Flames vets are playing as good or better this season than they showed 2 years ago... had Huberdeau specifically stayed as listless as previous seasons then this team is probably in the bottom 5.
3) The young players that have come online are also playing too good to tank
4) The other tanking teams are too tanky for us to out-tank

You keep looking for some imaginary ownership conspiracy and ignore any other factors that could explain this season.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I would argue that a rebuild is 'on the fly as you try to replace your core', a retool is ';changing up a piece or two of your core + changes on the fringes", and then there is a burn it to the ground rebuild. That's the vocabulary that I go off of now after listening to Conroy speaking about the 'retool' early in the season. However, that is my own interpretation.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Yeah none of those vets are worth building around. It’s embarrassing to think so. They are all past their prime.

The team needs to rebuild but as we know Edwards won’t allow that.

Cozen isn’t the elite talent to take this team over the top. Team needs actual elite top line talent.

And Dino with his usual Wolf and post in another thread saying wolf isn’t the reason we are good.

Flames need an elite center, but I get the sense that your definition of elite is going a bit overboard. It seems like if it isn't a 100+ point player, you can't win unless it's a McDavid or Mackinnon type. IMO there are 6 centers that are ahead of the rest. McDavid, Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthews, Eichel and Barkov.

Lots of good centers after that that I think are elite, but you keep spouting off that guys like Cozen can't be elite because he isn't McDavid.

Only 5 teams have those players, are you suggesting that only they can win the cup? Tampa, Carolina, Winnipeg, Dallas, Washington? None of these teams have a chance?

Cozens 100% has potential to be in a Scheifele, Aho, Point, Hintz, Strome range of center. You need to check your definition of elite.

Flames would have been in a great spot long term if they added Cozens. He does have potential to be in that elite class behind the best of the best.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Flames need an elite center, but I get the sense that your definition of elite is going a bit overboard. It seems like if it isn't a 100+ point player, you can't win unless it's a McDavid or Mackinnon type. IMO there are 6 centers that are ahead of the rest. McDavid, Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthews, Eichel and Barkov.

Lots of good centers after that that I think are elite, but you keep spouting off that guys like Cozen can't be elite because he isn't McDavid.

Only 5 teams have those players, are you suggesting that only they can win the cup? Tampa, Carolina, Winnipeg, Dallas, Washington? None of these teams have a chance?

Cozens 100% has potential to be in a Scheifele, Aho, Point, Hintz, Strome range of center. You need to check your definition of elite.

Flames would have been in a great spot long term if they added Cozens. He does have potential to be in that elite class behind the best of the best.

Scheifele was PPG by his 4th season. Aho and Hintz by their third. Strome isn't elite. He only just got to PPG and that's because he's finally the guy feeding Ovie. I don't consider any of those guys elite anyway. Point is but he also is a 90 point guy. He's a top 10 centre.

Cozens is on year five and looks like he is on track to be a decent decntre but not someone who you build your team around.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Here are the remaining players from the last Flames team to make the playoffs:

Rasmus Andersson
Mikael Backlund
Blake Coleman
Daniel Vladar

That's the list. This is a rebuild.

If you're talking since they've made the playoffs, then the moves to me indicate a retool.

In that time frame they've also brought in guys like

Huberdeau
Kadri
Weegar
Bahl
Sharangovich
Frost
Farabee
Miromanov
Mantha
Bean
Rooney
Pachal
Lomberg

When you compare this to the moves teams like the Shark and Blackhawks have done (who no questions asked are rebuilding), this feels more like a retool

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Flames need an elite center, but I get the sense that your definition of elite is going a bit overboard. It seems like if it isn't a 100+ point player, you can't win unless it's a McDavid or Mackinnon type. IMO there are 6 centers that are ahead of the rest. McDavid, Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthews, Eichel and Barkov.

Lots of good centers after that that I think are elite, but you keep spouting off that guys like Cozen can't be elite because he isn't McDavid.

Only 5 teams have those players, are you suggesting that only they can win the cup? Tampa, Carolina, Winnipeg, Dallas, Washington? None of these teams have a chance?

Cozens 100% has potential to be in a Scheifele, Aho, Point, Hintz, Strome range of center. You need to check your definition of elite.

Flames would have been in a great spot long term if they added Cozens. He does have potential to be in that elite class behind the best of the best.

How many cups in Carolina, Winnipeg and Dallas?

Cozen isn't elite and doesn't have the potential to be elite, he stinks defensively and has never been a player driver.

Thanks for defining for me my definition of elite lol. Can Cozen even play against those players you listed? Nope he would get dog walked.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by traptor

If you're talking since they've made the playoffs, then the moves to me indicate a retool.

In that time frame they've also brought in guys like

Huberdeau
Kadri
Weegar
Bahl
Sharangovich
Frost
Farabee
Miromanov
Mantha
Bean
Rooney
Pachal
Lomberg

When you compare this to the moves teams like the Shark and Blackhawks have done (who no questions asked are rebuilding), this feels more like a retool

This is a retool. It was explicitly stated by Bean that this team doesn't rebuild, couldn't even say the word. Edwards won't allow it.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Along with weegar, parehk and wolf, you are only missing an impact center. I would draft high risk high reward all day til we get one.

A contending team needs for than 3-4 players.

Parehk is not an impact dman in the NHL. At least not yet anyway. He is an impact player playing against 17 and 18 year olds.

He may become one, but he's far from one now. He could be a bust or somewhere in between.

Weegar will be on the down slide by the time Calgary is a contending team.

[delayedreflex]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Scheifele was PPG by his 4th season. Aho and Hintz by their third. Strome isn't elite. He only just got to PPG and that's because he's finally the guy feeding Ovie. I don't consider any of those guys elite anyway. Point is but he also is a 90 point guy. He's a top 10 centre.

Cozens is on year five and looks like he is on track to be a decent decntre but not someone who you build your team around.

Scheifele/Aho/Hintz may not be elite, but I think they are legitimate 1st line centres that you could challenge for a cup with as long as you have the supporting cast. I would put Niklas Backstrom and Ryan O'Reilly as other clear #1 centres (at the time of their cup runs) but not elite who centred cup-winning teams reasonably recently.

I haven't watched Cozens enough to know if he could fall into that group, but my gut feel is that he's more of a potential 1B centre than a clear-cut #1 - which is honestly all Calgary has ever had in the past (only Nieuwendyk, Gilmour, and at times Monahan and Lindholm have met the threshold of #1 centre to me).

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Scheifele was PPG by his 4th season. Aho and Hintz by their third. Strome isn't elite. He only just got to PPG and that's because he's finally the guy feeding Ovie. I don't consider any of those guys elite anyway. Point is but he also is a 90 point guy. He's a top 10 centre.

Cozens is on year five and looks like he is on track to be a decent decntre but not someone who you build your team around.

AO is 39 and plays way less minutes than he used too.

Scheifele looks elite now but a couple years ago when he was potentially available, CP sure didn't think he was elite.

Point is elite but plays in a pretty sweet spot with Kucherov

Aho IMO is just as good as any on that list.

Cozens has potential to be in that range. Point is that having an elite center doesn't need to be McDavid or MacKinnon. Only a few teams have a center that good. More than 2 cup contenders right now.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by delayedreflex

Scheifele/Aho/Hintz may not be elite, but I think they are legitimate 1st line centres that you could challenge for a cup with as long as you have the supporting cast. I would put Niklas Backstrom and Ryan O'Reilly as other clear #1 centres (at the time of their cup runs) but not elite who centred cup-winning teams reasonably recently.

I haven't watched Cozens enough to know if he could fall into that group, but my gut feel is that he's more of a potential 1B centre than a clear-cut #1 - which is honestly all Calgary has ever had in the past (only Nieuwendyk, Gilmour, and at times Monahan and Lindholm have met the threshold of #1 centre to me).

That is the whole point. To say right now that Cozens doesn't have the potential to be a #1 center is way off. Do you need the top player in the league at center or a top 10-20 center? IMO you need at least 1 center that is in that range. After that why can't you have an elite Dman and Goalie to go with that top 15 or so center and build a contending team? IMO you can.

The Flames seem to love to draft 10-20 OV, we will always be loaded on the wing if we draft well and keep drafting in that range. Lots of elite centers go outside the top 10 picks but most go early.

Trading a good young winger and a pick for a good young center was worth it and a miss IMO by Conroy. Right now, when healthy this team has too many wingers in the top 9 anyways and Cozens in allows us to look at Kadri out.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

This is a retool. It was explicitly stated by Bean that this team doesn't rebuild, couldn't even say the word. Edwards won't allow it.

You go by the words of a lying executive if you want. I'm going by actions.