Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Well, #### this NO GOOD mother####er straight to hell.

[WideReceiver]

I don’t GAF what team a politician cheers for.

[2ArmBands]

Originally Posted by Kaine

My point exactly. It was a good idea when PP said it last year, would he have implemented it? Maybe yes, maybe no, we'll never know. The current PM obviously thought it was a good enough idea to implement and did so.


A good idea is a good idea. Most people likely care far less about "who thought it up first", I know I do.


Look at what happens when sides spend less time attacking one another and just take a good idea and run with it! Who knew...

That’s fair. I guess you have to understand that there’s a lot of shade getting thrown around in this thread by all kinds of different people. It is a political thread after all. There are endless comments about PP not having a plan or any policy yet here we are watching the Liberals adopt his policies. I’m not saying this is a bad thing but I think it’s important to note it for the sake of this thread.

Ultimately I think we will be better off as a country after this election regardless of who ends up as Prime Minister.

[woob]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

lol

If it was so easy for you to explain it, you would have explained it. Instead of resorting to some silly ad hominem.

I seriously don't get it. The point you were making in your original post was so simple to understand. Like dead simple.

But, I know he's not discussing/debating from a place of sincerity.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by WideReceiver

I don’t GAF what team a politician cheers for.

The losers in calgary had no issues voting that dog #### smith who was cheering and waiving for Edmonton.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by 2ArmBands

One is not Prime Minister and does not have the ability to do it.

If he was a better politician and a better leader he would have found a way. Mark Carney just entered the political theatre and he's already a better leader with more action to his name than 'Ol' Empty Words' Pollievre.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

If he was a better politician and a better leader he would have found a way. Mark Carney just entered the political theatre and he's already a better leader with more action to his name than 'Ol' Empty Words' Pollievre.

At this point Carney has more accomplishments in the private sector AND the public sector than PP.

It was bad enough he’d never had an actual job outside of politics. But pretty damning for a 45 year old career politician to have his entire career outshone in a week.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Well I guess I'm a whackjob for thinking that humanity's ability to live on this planet is more important than lining the pockets of fossil fuel execs.

Look, we can walk and chew gum at the same time - continue to export traditional energy for now, while at the same time aggressively develop solar, wind, geothermal, nuclear, and the next generation of clean energy technology.

Your snide contempt for net zero (and your general climate-denial-adjacent stance) reminds me of the saying, "it is very hard to help someone understand something, when the person's income depends upon the lack of understanding it".

As for PP's plan, if he has one, is he willing to present it to the public? I could not find it on his website. One policy does not a plan make.

I think that the part of this that Canadians are unable to accept, is that our emissions are simply not high enough to matter globally. What we do or don't do, does not matter. We are not big enough to move the needle.

If we really wanted to help the world with climate change, we would be making as much money as possible, and mandating that a significant amount of the proceeds need to go towards R&D for solving global climate issues.

If Canada maxed out our capacity to produce fossil fuels, but also solved the ocean acidification problem, we alone would have saved the Earth.

[afc wimbledon]

He grew up in Edmonton in the 80's, while I may despise the team I won't hold his support against him, it's legitimately his childhood hometown team

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

GDP per capita being considered an "abstract concept" is exactly why Canada is in the position that it's in...

Despite your quotation marks, no one said it’s an “abstract concept.” But GDP is clearly not something that people feel directly, like they do with wages, employment levels, and prices. There’s a reason the Democrats got thrown out of office despite fantastic GDP per capita numbers.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Yep all fair comments. I don’t think the building of a pipeline is all that Herculean though.

Of course oil CEOs aren’t planning for it- it’s a god awful investment when layering in even the most basic level of risk. From a regulatory, land acquisition, construction, and red tape standpoint this country has made a relatively straightforward task an insanely risky proposition so yeah as I have already said the government of Canada needs to build it. Also we make steel in Quebec, don’t we? Sounds like pipe material.

Moreover, it’s more likely the public threat and early stages of building a line give you a huge amount of leverage in trade negotiations. The American refineries that rely on our oil will freak out. In fact we have already seen that they’re making plans to transition their refineries off Canadian crude so who knows how serious or long that takes- but if it is serious we are absolutely ####ed. Again +60 trade surplus with Canada but when you layer in oil and gas it drops to -200 so it literally is the swing here. Which means it’s by far our biggest piece of leverage in negotiations.

Lastly, the government literally just finished building a pipeline. So, I’m pretty sure we can borrow a lot of the same learnings, procurement, plans, follow the same building guidelines etc etc etc for a new line. Plan it to the open space on the south part of the inlet of Prince Rupert, twin the existing cross provincial lines that run from basically Dawson out to that point and start building trenches.

Surveying could take a couple months, mobilize a #### load of crews, like get aggressively after it. Again it’s all these actions (that you can be public about) to leverage trade negotiations or protect Canadian sovereignty. Nobody is coming to Canadas defence unless we’re willing to trade them the resources they’ve been asking for now for over a decade or more.

If there is no intent on building it and instead just using it as leverage I agree you could have shovels in the ground in 6 months. Move some of the keystone steel to BC, have some protests that you clear out with police. Get some welders out there.

I think a fake pipeline to keep Trump in line is a really good idea

[Vedder]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Well I guess I'm a whackjob for thinking that humanity's ability to live on this planet is more important than lining the pockets of fossil fuel execs.

Look, we can walk and chew gum at the same time - continue to export traditional energy for now, while at the same time aggressively develop solar, wind, geothermal, nuclear, and the next generation of clean energy technology.

Your snide contempt for net zero (and your general climate-denial-adjacent stance) reminds me of the saying, "it is very hard to help someone understand something, when the person's income depends upon the lack of understanding it".

As for PP's plan, if he has one, is he willing to present it to the public? I could not find it on his website. One policy does not a plan make.

While I appreciate the sentiment, it’s hopelessly naive given how the world is actually operating.

There is NO premium for low emissions energy, and other countries are not proactively destroying private investment in their industry the way Canada is. The only thing we are achieving is the decline of our own prosperity. For what? A false sense of moral superiority.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Vedder

While I appreciate the sentiment, it’s hopelessly naive given how the world is actually operating.

There is NO premium for low emissions energy, and other countries are not proactively destroying private investment in their industry the way Canada is. The only thing we are achieving is the decline of our own prosperity. For what? A false sense of moral superiority.

Sensational claims and outright falsehoods aren’t helping your point. Responding to perceived naivety by being totally myopic is silly. The easy answer to what we’re achieving, or “for what?” is investment and growth in renewables and green energy. And a big part of the growth of that energy isn’t just separate from O&G, it’s in helping O&G meet certain targets by developing tech that helps them reduce emissions.

Expand your mind a little bit. There’s more to Canada then your narrow view allows you to see.

[Vedder]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Sensational claims and outright falsehoods aren’t helping your point. Responding to perceived naivety by being totally myopic is silly. The easy answer to what we’re achieving, or “for what?” is investment and growth in renewables and green energy. And a big part of the growth of that energy isn’t just separate from O&G, it’s in helping O&G meet certain targets by developing tech that helps them reduce emissions.

Expand your mind a little bit. There’s more to Canada then your narrow view allows you to see.

Everything above is absolute nonsense.

There is no scenario where Canada invests in renewables, which at this point are only economic when there is abundant base load supply in the way of fossil fuels or nuclear, and replaces the productive capacity of its natural resource industry.

We produce natural resources that we have a competitive advantage in, which the world pays us for in the global reserves currency, in exchange we consume things from the rest of the world. We cannot export renewables on scale with a competitive advantage. It’s not possible. Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you. Renewables at best augment our economy.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Vedder

Everything above is absolute nonsense.

There is no scenario where Canada invests in renewables, which at this point are only economic when there is abundant base load supply in the way of fossil fuels or nuclear, and replaces the productive capacity of its natural resource industry.

We produce natural resources that we have a competitive advantage in, which the world pays us for in the global reserves currency, in exchange we consume things from the rest of the world. We cannot export renewables on scale with a competitive advantage. It’s not possible. Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you. Renewables at best augment our economy.

At some point the majority of the world is going to move to primarily renewable and green technologies. It absolutely behooves us to try to be ahead of the curve so as not to be in the same situation as we are right now, sitting with our dicks in our hands, and relying on other countries to sell us their innovations and products.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't stop exporting our own resources until then, but we absolutely should be using the profits from those to invest in our green tech sector so that we are ready for green energy independence when the time comes.

What is absolute nonsense is making it easier for private corporations to pocket the excess profit from our resources.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by GGG

If there is no intent on building it and instead just using it as leverage I agree you could have shovels in the ground in 6 months. Move some of the keystone steel to BC, have some protests that you clear out with police. Get some welders out there.

I think a fake pipeline to keep Trump in line is a really good idea

Exactly and then you could even be so good at faking it that maybe one day you pump oil through it and capture a #### ton value for Canada.

It’s a good plan because it’s literally what needs to happen here.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by rubecube

At some point the majority of the world is going to move to primarily renewable and green technologies. It absolutely behooves us to try to be ahead of the curve so as not to be in the same situation as we are right now, sitting with our dicks in our hands, and relying on other countries to sell us their innovations and products.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't stop exporting our own resources until then, but we absolutely should be using the profits from those to invest in our green tech sector so that we are ready for green energy independence when the time comes.

What is absolute nonsense is making it easier for private corporations to pocket the excess profit from our resources.

Agreed! I see no reason why renewables should not be continually invested in and we should be leaders in R&D to that effect. Hate the UCP’s approach to renewables/ solar just makes no sense at all. And Canada should be an energy leader not just an oil and gas leader (but, that too).

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Agreed! I see no reason why renewables should not be continually invested in and we should be leaders in R&D to that effect. Hate the UCP’s approach to renewables/ solar just makes no sense at all. And Canada should be an energy leader not just an oil and gas leader (but, that too).

I applied for a job several years ago. As part of the application process, they gave me an assignment to research Canada's innovation ranking in the world. It was incredibly sobering to see where we ranked compared to nations smaller than us, and we had been sinking for years.

It's captured pretty well here:

https://www.wipo.int/web-publication...4-results.html

There's no reason for this other than we have consistently outsourced our innovation to other countries and not done enough to ensure that dollars made off of Canadians and Canadian resources stay in the Canadian economy.

EDIT: I also don't think it's a coincidence that most of the countries in the top 10 have heavily subsidized or completely socialized post-secondary.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I think that the part of this that Canadians are unable to accept, is that our emissions are simply not high enough to matter globally. What we do or don't do, does not matter. We are not big enough to move the needle.

Seems a bit convenient that when we export fossil fuels and they get burned by other countries, we make money from those exports, but the resulting emissions don't get attributed to us.

I get the counter argument though; other countries will fill the demand if we don't.

If we really wanted to help the world with climate change, we would be making as much money as possible, and mandating that a significant amount of the proceeds need to go towards R&D for solving global climate issues.

And that right there is the kicker. How do we get public support for making huge investments in green energy, far greater than we've ever done before? Are we willing to raise taxes on fossil fuel companies to cover the cost? Reduce fossil fuel subsidies? Or do we look at other funding sources? How do we make this happen?

And if I'm being honest, these are the types of conversations we should have been having 10-15 years ago.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Vedder

Everything above is absolute nonsense.

There is no scenario where Canada invests in renewables, which at this point are only economic when there is abundant base load supply in the way of fossil fuels or nuclear, and replaces the productive capacity of its natural resource industry.

We produce natural resources that we have a competitive advantage in, which the world pays us for in the global reserves currency, in exchange we consume things from the rest of the world. We cannot export renewables on scale with a competitive advantage. It’s not possible. Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you. Renewables at best augment our economy.

Then you didn’t bother to read what I actually wrote and don’t actually understand the clean energy/renewable industry at all if you think any of what you just said is an effective counterpoint to what I’m saying.

For one, your dramatics around “destroying private investment” and “decline of our own prosperity” is, as I said, totally myopic to the point where you have no standing to call anything else nonsense. Nonsensical appeals to emotion are a terrible way to evaluate business and economic decisions.

Two, the point IS that renewables augment the economy. And if you actually bothered to read, they’re augmenting the O&G industry RIGHT NOW. When faced with an emissions cap, O&G companies have a few choices, but two of those choices are to cut production and just… leave hundreds of millions of dollars in the table because… reasons I guess? or invest in tech that helps them reduce emissions, which many of these companies are doing. These investments help grow this industry, so not only are emissions being reduced, but we’re developing new ways to reduce them at home and fuelling (no pun intended) another industry through them.

So if you believe there is no positive here, you’re the one being lied to.

I mean, PP talks all the time how we the most ethical energy in the world and everyone would love to have it. If there’s no premium on ethical energy, I guess the world is just going to laugh in his face.