Sure, I'll grant that.
And you're right nothing is black and white.
But let's be honest and clear here, everyone who voted for Trump decided that all of the following things were true:
1) Persecuting vulnerable groups, such as trans children is justifiable under the right circumstances
2) Supporting Putin in a war of aggression is justifiable under the right circumstances
3) Allowing the dismantling of the federal government is justifiable under the right circumstances
4) Mass deportations are justifiable under the right circumstances
5) A whole slew of other horrible things Trump promised are justifiable under the right circumstances
They also did so knowing that whatever those circumstances were, whatever the reason was, it was being promised by a man who is a know Liar, Rapist, Criminal, who delivered almost nothing of what he promised the first time.
They looked at that list and decided that all of those things could be justified for the CHANCE of whatever that reason was to come to fruition.
They all voted for a person who's platform was "I'm going to make your life better, (but/and) I'm gonna hurt a lot of people to do it"
The one's who read that as "And", they are being actively horrible.
The ones who read it as "but", they did the math in their head and decided it was worth it to hurt a lot of people to get what they wanted.
Is that everyone? No
But it's the vast majority of them.
I have no issue with pointing out that people that make those kinds of choices, are doing something horrible and need to be called out for it.
That is making a lot of assumptions, in my opinion.
There are a significant amount of economic factors that made people vote for Trump as well.
I personally do not think these people will actually be better off under the Trump administration. Demonstrably it's getting worse. But I can see why they might have been bamboozled yet again.
But when you are living day to day, cheque to cheque, and someone is telling you that they are gonna make your life better, you vote on a chance and some hope that it will, you don't have the time or will to be better informed or educate yourself, or probably care about the social implications.
Or you are so caught up in an social/economic echo chamber that the alternative (democrats) does not seem to be an option. And often times social issues can have little impact when you are just worried about eating the next day or having a home for your kids.
Being uneducated, poor, struggling, starving and afraid for the future doesn't make you evil, despicable and worthy of hell (or whatever, haha).
There are a lot (I would guess a significant portion) of Trump voters who fit into the categories above. And those are the ones I am saying, hey, just take a second and stop painting everyone with the same brush here.
Of course the overt and active #######s, racists and other member of MAGA and his administration need and should be called out, whenever and wherever possible.
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Last edited by Wastedyouth; 03-12-2025 at 02:04 PM.
It looks like it was Ireland's turn to get barked at by Trump for treating America so unfairly.
I think he just resents the whole notion that other countries can compete and have their own industries. Everyone should just stop producing and buy from the U.S. How are you going to buy American stuff without your own industries, who knows.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
I don't necessarily see voting Trump as evil, thinking he might lower the prices on everything.
But if you still support him after he is now threatening war with allied countries, blaming Ukraine for getting invaded, and basically de stabilizing the global trade market then those people are evil. There isn't even a question, if you are a Trump supporter today, you're basically supporting a Fascist takeover.
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I don't necessarily see voting Trump as evil, thinking he might lower the prices on everything.
It wouldn't make them evil, but it would make them naïve at best and downright stupid at worst.
And probably selfish too. There is a real "screw everyone else as long as I get mine" attitude among his base. They want cheaper eggs even at the expense of other people's rights, democratic norms, and human dignity.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Dude, you need to go back and re-read Night by Elie Wiesel.
Many Jewish people in the 1940s just plain didn't believe Germany would do what they were being told Germany would do (and was actively doing). "not in the 20th century!"
They marched them to death camps and killed six million of them.
It's so incredibly naïve and ignorant of history to think there is some great moral force that can save you from authoritarian violence and invasion when it announces it's coming for you.
Prepare for the worst and hope for the best, but don't assume there is some magic soldier that will stand in front of the weight of the US government's will. That's ridiculous. He'd last about five seconds.
Well, I don't think the situation that Europe and the Jewish people faced in the 30s is all that comparable to what's happening between the USA and Canada today.
And I'm not just expecting the one guy in a Norman Rockwell painting standing up to object. I'm talking, collectively, the entire Armed Forces refusing to invade and wage war on a peaceful member of NATO.
Despite what the President and his installed sycophants say or order, it's absolute lunacy to cross the 49th and start killing Canadians. You don't think there would be any resistance at all to Trump pointing his finger north and belching out "Conquer"?
__________________ "It's a great day for hockey."
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Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wastedyouth
That is making a lot of assumptions, in my opinion.
There are a significant amount of economic factors that made people vote for Trump as well.
I personally do not think these people will actually be better off under the Trump administration. Demonstrably it's getting worse. But I can see why they might have been bamboozled yet again.
But when you are living day to day, cheque to cheque, and someone is telling you that they are gonna make your life better, you vote on a chance and some hope that it will, you don't have the time or will to be better informed or educate yourself, or probably care about the social implications.
Or you are so caught up in an social/economic echo chamber that the alternative (democrats) does not seem to be an option. And often times social issues can have little impact when you are just worried about eating the next day or having a home for your kids.
Being uneducated, poor, struggling, starving and afraid for the future doesn't make you evil, despicable and worthy of hell (or whatever, haha).
There are a lot (I would guess a significant portion) of Trump voters who fit into the categories above. And those are the ones I am saying, hey, just take a second and stop painting everyone with the same brush here.
Of course the overt and active #######s, racists and other member of MAGA and his administration need and should be called out, whenever and wherever possible.
What assumptions am I making?
Trump said "I'm gonna do these horrible things", and people voted for him.
At some point they need to square that away. They voted for someone who's platform included intentionally hurting a lot of innocent/vulnerable people.
They did that for a lot of reasons, and yeah, most of them were probably economic.
I'll give people a pass on not being smart enough to figure out that Trump is never going to deliver the economic part they want/need, because he truly doesn't care about anyone but himself.
But at some point people need to look in the mirror and accept that this is what they signed up for. They gave Trump carte blanche do do as much harm as he wanted. To hurt whoever he wanted, on the promise that he would help them.
Giving them the best possible benefit of the doubt, 70 million people voted for a platform that promised them what they wanted, with the cost being harm to some of the most vulnerable people in the country. Everyone made a conscious decision that that harm was justifiable because they would get what they wanted/needed.
We're in a similar situation in Alberta and Canada.
On one hand I've got PP telling me that he will make my life better, that I'll have more money in my pocket. Danielle Smith is telling me the same thing. But that promise comes with all the baggage of the BS trans rights issues the Danielle Smith is currently doing and PP has definitely nodded at. It's an easy decision for me. I'm not willing to vote for someone who claims they will make my life better if the trade off is letting them harm other, vulnerable people. Will any of that stop me from putting food on the table? No, and I'm grateful to be in that position, but regardless of where we are economically, we need to own up to our choices, and what the implications of them are. Regardless of why you voted for Trump, you also voted for all of the horrible things he's doing.
Trump voters voted for all of the horrible things he's doing. They own all of the horrible things he's doing.
Also bear in mind, an argument could be made that every government promises things that will harm people.
The difference is Donald Trump, and his ilk, aren't promising things that will have a side effect of harming people, they are actively promising to harm people. That is the promise, harm for harm's sake.
That is, at least in some part, what 70 million people voted for.
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But when you are living day to day, cheque to cheque, and someone is telling you that they are gonna make your life better, you vote on a chance and some hope that it will, you don't have the time or will to be better informed or educate yourself, or probably care about the social implications.
But you just kind of proved his point. All these people who voted for Trump, had no excuse for not knowing what he was going to do those groups. He promised it, in most cases, and his base was frothing at the mouth.
If a whole bunch of people voted for him thinking he would help them economically (which is a whole other level of stupid) but willing to accept everything else, then yes, they decided that all that persecution is okay under the right circumstances. For them, the right circumstances is making their lives better (while making other lives worse).
Most people complaining about having voted for Trump aren't complaining they're going after trans or other vulnerable people. They're complaining that it's affecting them personally.
Well, I don't think the situation that Europe and the Jewish people faced in the 30s is all that comparable to what's happening between the USA and Canada today.
And I'm not just expecting the one guy in a Norman Rockwell painting standing up to object. I'm talking, collectively, the entire Armed Forces refusing to invade and wage war on a peaceful member of NATO.
Despite what the President and his installed sycophants say or order, it's absolute lunacy to cross the 49th and start killing Canadians. You don't think there would be any resistance at all to Trump pointing his finger north and belching out "Conquer"?
If we are talking about Trump ordering a full scale invasion of Canada, then I could see powerful people in the military protesting.
But if it was something like Trump declaring a national emergency and ordering the occupation of a hydro electric dam and some sparsely inhabited are near the border, would they grin and bear it? Or if the U.S. decided that we didn't need some of the Arctic archipelago islands, but they did, would anyone in the U.S. military refuse?
A full scale invasion is pretty unlikely, but taking bits and pieces for strategic and economic benefits isn't that that far off IMO. Russia took Crimea in what was a pretty bloodless invasion (1 to 3 soldiers depending on which side is reporting, and 3 civilian protestors were killed). The U.S. could take a lot without a bullet being fired and I doubt the world does much but complain about it.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 03-12-2025 at 02:51 PM.
Well, I don't think the situation that Europe and the Jewish people faced in the 30s is all that comparable to what's happening between the USA and Canada today.
And I'm not just expecting the one guy in a Norman Rockwell painting standing up to object. I'm talking, collectively, the entire Armed Forces refusing to invade and wage war on a peaceful member of NATO.
Despite what the President and his installed sycophants say or order, it's absolute lunacy to cross the 49th and start killing Canadians. You don't think there would be any resistance at all to Trump pointing his finger north and belching out "Conquer"?
You are underestimating the loyalty of his bootlickers.
He could tell the press secretary to go out and bark like puppy to the reporters and she would. Without hesitation. He could tell Lutnick to threaten 1000% tariff on Canada, and he would. You think Hesgeth would refuse any Trump orders, including invading a former ally?
The military is a reflection of a society - 74 million voted for Trump. Plenty of them would love the chance to kill us communist socialists.
That is making a lot of assumptions, in my opinion.
There are a significant amount of economic factors that made people vote for Trump as well.
I personally do not think these people will actually be better off under the Trump administration. Demonstrably it's getting worse. But I can see why they might have been bamboozled yet again.
But when you are living day to day, cheque to cheque, and someone is telling you that they are gonna make your life better, you vote on a chance and some hope that it will, you don't have the time or will to be better informed or educate yourself, or probably care about the social implications.
Or you are so caught up in an social/economic echo chamber that the alternative (democrats) does not seem to be an option. And often times social issues can have little impact when you are just worried about eating the next day or having a home for your kids.
Being uneducated, poor, struggling, starving and afraid for the future doesn't make you evil, despicable and worthy of hell (or whatever, haha).
There are a lot (I would guess a significant portion) of Trump voters who fit into the categories above. And those are the ones I am saying, hey, just take a second and stop painting everyone with the same brush here.
Of course the overt and active #######s, racists and other member of MAGA and his administration need and should be called out, whenever and wherever possible.
You are wrong.
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It wouldn't make them evil, but it would make them naïve at best and downright stupid at worst.
And probably selfish too. There is a real "screw everyone else as long as I get mine" attitude among his base. They want cheaper eggs even at the expense of other people's rights, democratic norms, and human dignity.
This is my take. I do follow some MAGAs, especially on YouTube. It’s fascinating.
Basically if I can’t have it, you can’t have it either, and I will try to take yours using whatever excuse I can come up with.
Yes, there are some who are scared and voted for the promise of it getting better. But the underlying hate is still there.
My old job was a union job. Even though it was essentially a blue collar environment with employees of various education levels, everyone was pretty savvy politically. Not one day went by when it wasn’t the main topic of discussion. That and picking on each other for whatever reason.
You are underestimating the loyalty of his bootlickers.
He could tell the press secretary to go out and bark like puppy to the reporters and she would. Without hesitation. He could tell Lutnick to threaten 1000% tariff on Canada, and he would. You think Hesgeth would refuse any Trump orders, including invading a former ally?
The military is a reflection of a society - 74 million voted for Trump. Plenty of them would love the chance to kill us communist socialists.
The bootlickers aren't the ones that will be on the ground getting shot at.
I just don't believe this is as cut and dry as some think it is. It's going to be a much tougher sell to take ownership as the evil empire to the grunts on the ground than it was in Russia where Putin has a much stronger grip over the country's throat.
__________________ "It's a great day for hockey."
-'Badger' Bob Johnson (1931-1991)
"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm." -Dr. Amos "Doc" Cochran
I don't think that I've ever quoted myself, but this problem just played itself out in real time. I thought that this was important enough to post, and then it was immediately buried in three pages of absolute nonsense.
There is a lot of good in this thread, and but Wastedyouth and a retort should have been two posts. Constantly burying the lead, just feeds apathy.
I just watched the full Sam Sieder show, debating with conservatives (a clip shown earlier in the thread), and the trade wars and threatening Canada didn't even make the show. It's so out of the news cycle in the States, I don't know if it's widely known that it happening.
Crazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime
This was sent to me via a poster named Mugsy Margarit (to give credit). It's interesting to see it all written down in one place, and might be a bit of a valuable reference.
The barrage of information is often used as a weapon, so that readers quickly move onto whatever is the new exciting headline.
Spoiler!
Nov 30th, 2018 - The United States, Canada and Mexico finalize a trade agreement. Trump personally negotiates the terms and signs the document, celebrating it as 'the greatest trade agreement in history". (This is important.)
Nov 29th, 2024 - In a face to face meeting, Trump threatens the Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, that he will be imposing 25% tariffs and that if Canada wants to avoid that, it should join the US as a state.
Nov 30th, 2024 - Trump publicly calls our Prime Minister 'Governor Trudeau' and instructs his staff to only address him as Governor going forward. He again suggests Canada should join the USA.
Dec 3rd, 2024 - Trump remarks that he would split Canada into two states once annexed.
Dec 10th, 2024 - Trump posts that the majority of Canadians support annexation, despite public polling that only 13% of Canadians would consider the idea.
Dec 18th, 2024 - Trump again falsely states that the majority of Canadians support annexation and that one of his lapdogs, Wayne Gretzky, should have a leadership role in that new scenario.
Jan 7th, 2025 - At a press conference, Trump says that he would use economic force to destroy the Canadian economy to annex it.
Jan 14, 2025 - Trump again claims that most Canadians want to be American, despite new polls showing only 10% of us are open to the idea.
Jan 20th, 2025 - During his inaugural address, Trump says that the U.S. will 'expand its territory' during his second term.
Jan 23rd, 2025 - At the World Economic Forum, Trump says that Canada can avoid tariffs and economic collapse if it joins the US. He says this in front of representatives from most countries in the world.
Jan 24th, 2025 - Trump states publicly that Canada 'will' become a state
Jan 31st, 2025 - Trump announces a 25% tariff on all Canadian imports to begin the next day.
Feb 2nd, 2025 - Trump refers to Canada as its 'Cherished 51st state' and that it should join the US to avoid tariffs.
Feb 3rd, 2025 - A one month delay is agreed upon. Trump, in a conversation with Trudeau states that he doesn't think existing border treaties with Canada are valid, and need to be revised.
Feb 7th, 2025 - In a closed door meeting with his cabinet, Prime Minister Trudeau is recorded, without his knowledge, telling everyone that he believes very strongly that Trump is serious and that he stated his reason for annexation as Canadian resources.
Feb 9th, 2025 - In a Super Bowl pre-game interview, Trump says that he's serious about his threats, calling it a 'viable consideration for expanding US territory'
Feb 10th, 2025 - Trump announces an additional 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum imports from Canada to come into effect March 12th.
Feb 24th, 2025 - Trump publicly remarks that whoever signed the USMCA agreement is an idiot. He was the one that signed it.
March 4th, 5th, and 6th 2025 - Tariffs come into effect. Canada retaliates with it's own tariffs. Tariffs are again postponed until April 1st after a huge market backlash.
March 4th, 2025 - In an address to a joint session of congress, Trump states that the US will own Greenland 'one way or the other'.
March 5th, 2025 - US Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick told Canadian finance minister Dominic LeBlanc that Trump "had come to realize that the relationship between the United States and Canada was governed by a slew of agreements and treaties that were easy to abandon."
March 7th, 2025 - Unconfirmed Memorandum and maps leaked on twitter reveal Trump is allegedly planning to annex the entirety of the great lakes and Southern Ontario, home to 13,491,332 Canadians. This amounts to 35.25% of Canada's total population and includes its largest city, Toronto. This region accounts for 38% of the Canadian economy, and its loss would make Canada's independence functionally impossible.
March 8th, 2025 - Canada's foreign minister warns European allies that their government considers Canada to be under existential threat.
March 9th, 2025 - Mark Carney, the new Canadian Prime Minister, in his acceptance speech, states that Trump is seeking to destroy Canada, and its way of life.
March 11, 2025 - President Trump threatens to “permanently shut down the automobile manufacturing business in Canada” if Canada does not drop a 250% to 390% tariff on U.S. dairy products, which he doesn’t state only kicks in after a certain quantity of tariff-free U.S. dairy enters Canada, a quantity that was originally negotiated and agreed to by Trump during the USMCA in 2018.
In Trump's own words, "The only thing that makes sense is for Canada to become our cherished Fifty First State. This would make all Tariffs, and everything else, totally disappear. Canadians’ taxes will be very substantially reduced, they will be more secure, militarily and otherwise, than ever before, there would no longer be a Northern Border problem, and the greatest and most powerful nation in the World will be bigger, better and stronger than ever — And Canada will be a big part of that. The artificial line of separation drawn many years ago will finally disappear, and we will have the safest and most beautiful Nation anywhere in the World — And your brilliant anthem, “O Canada,” will continue to play, but now representing a GREAT and POWERFUL STATE within the greatest Nation that the World has ever seen!"
March 11th, 2025 PT. II - Peter Navarro, a Senior Advisor for Trump is interviewed by MSNBC. When asked about the tariffs he responds with "Just tamp it down, please, over there, ok? They're throwing down the hockey gloves. Stop that rhetoric...we're not going to tolerate anything but them stopping killing Americans", insinuating that this situation was caused by Canadians killing Americans.
March 11th, 2025 PT III - Trump again publicly muses that Canada, Greenland, and the US should be one country, and questions the validity of the Canadian and American border.
__________________
"By Grabthar's hammer ... what a savings."
The bootlickers aren't the ones that will be on the ground getting shot at.
Why not? You don't think they could be gotten to? I think they could.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
I don't think that I've ever quoted myself, but this problem just played itself out in real time. I thought that this was important enough to post, and then it was immediately buried in three pages of absolute nonsense.
There is a lot of good in this thread, and but Wastedyouth and a retort should have been two posts. Constantly burying the lead, just feeds apathy.
I just watched the full Sam Sieder show, debating with conservatives (a clip shown earlier in the thread), and the trade wars and threatening Canada didn't even make the show. It's so out of the news cycle in the States, I don't know if it's widely known that it happening.
Crazy.
It did become up very briefly, but ya, not much time spent on it.
Is it wrong for me to greet Tesla drivers with the Musk open hearted maneuver?
I want them to feel welcome.
I guess if you are still in junior high or personally know that they bought it recently as a show of support for his ideals? I'd wager that 99% of current Tesla owners did not, and have had it for a couple, if not a few years. A scant minority will have the funds to just quickly swap out their heavily depreciated car, especially going into a devalued Canadian dollar with impending recession.
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Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
If we are talking about Trump ordering a full scale invasion of Canada, then I could see powerful people in the military protesting.
But if it was something like Trump declaring a national emergency and ordering the occupation of a hydro electric dam and some sparsely inhabited are near the border, would they grin and bear it? Or if the U.S. decided that we didn't need some of the Arctic archipelago islands, but they did, would anyone in the U.S. military refuse?
A full scale invasion is pretty unlikely, but taking bits and pieces for strategic and economic benefits isn't that that far off IMO. Russia took Crimea in what was a pretty bloodless invasion (1 to 3 soldiers depending on which side is reporting, and 3 civilian protestors were killed). The U.S. could take a lot without a bullet being fired and I doubt the world does much but complain about it.
Since Putin has Trump's ear (at least that much), he might suggest that a false flag of some type might be a great idea.
Or if propaganda and misinformation can get Maple Maga so riled up that they force the Canadian government to crackdown, maybe the US needs to step in to "protect" MM's civil liberties.
In a post-truth world, there are so many ways to go about acting like the good guys while they invade us.
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