Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I’m thinking the next Federal election is going to be ugly, with the full weight of Russian, Chinese, AND American interference in play.

The Indians want to play as well. They might be involved in the Liberal leadership race already.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

1. The overuse of the concept, "diversity, equity and inclusion" in the hiring process e.g. universities, critically important positions

"The entire point of DEI is to make sure the most qualified people get the jobs. DEI is about making sure minorities and women get a chance to show they are the most qualified for the job, rather than a white guy hiring another white guy. Anyone who says they are against DEI because they think the job should go to the most qualified person, is just explaining that they don't understand the concept."

If that is what was happening, I would be all for it. However, I have witnessed the opposite.

In the 1980s PET and the Liberals decided that there should be more French Canadians in the RCMP. MY BIL, a very high ranking RCMP officer, charged with promoting senior officers, revealed to me how orders were given as to how that was to be carried out.

Officers were to be chosen, on an annual basis, in the following order, 1. a French Canadian, 2. a bilingual member, and 3. an English member. All officers were routinely tested annually, and in when it came time to choose a
French Canadian member, he was forced to choose someone who stood 50th in the list of those who were tested.

So I think you can see that the best person was not always chosen. And we all know what has happened with the RCMP over the years.

Also, if it is done to give women the advantage, it is worth noting that in the Universities, women are often over-represented in some of the professions, e.g. medicine, teaching

Posts like this are just so depressing.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

wow

a couple back to back hits

Let me just completely ignore the well thought out retorts, and drop in with a 40 year old anecdote about Trudeau that proves DEI is flawed.


And honestly, if a program is flawed, you work to fix the flaws. Do you throw your car in the crusher because it wears tires unevenly?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Posts like this are just so depressing.

The only non-depressing part is how no one thanks the post. Oh, well, almost no one.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Let me just completely ignore the well thought out retorts, and drop in with a 40 year old anecdote about Trudeau that proves DEI is flawed.


And honestly, if a program is flawed, you work to fix the flaws. Do you throw your car in the crusher because it wears tires unevenly?

Also worth noting that every organization's DEI program is different. I expect that they run the spectrum in terms of effectiveness.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

1. The overuse of the concept, "diversity, equity and inclusion" in the hiring process e.g. universities, critically important positions

"The entire point of DEI is to make sure the most qualified people get the jobs. DEI is about making sure minorities and women get a chance to show they are the most qualified for the job, rather than a white guy hiring another white guy. Anyone who says they are against DEI because they think the job should go to the most qualified person, is just explaining that they don't understand the concept."

If that is what was happening, I would be all for it. However, I have witnessed the opposite.

In the 1980s PET and the Liberals decided that there should be more French Canadians in the RCMP. MY BIL, a very high ranking RCMP officer, charged with promoting senior officers, revealed to me how orders were given as to how that was to be carried out.

Officers were to be chosen, on an annual basis, in the following order, 1. a French Canadian, 2. a bilingual member, and 3. an English member. All officers were routinely tested annually, and in when it came time to choose a
French Canadian member, he was forced to choose someone who stood 50th in the list of those who were tested.

So I think you can see that the best person was not always chosen. And we all know what has happened with the RCMP over the years.

Also, if it is done to give women the advantage, it is worth noting that in the Universities, women are often over-represented in some of the professions, e.g. medicine, teaching

Is that actually happening, or is it just sour grapes from the white guy losing their job opportunity to a more qualified individual? Like how do you even prove your anecdotal "evidence". At least the DEI side have stats to back up their claims.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

I can't think of any ridership numbers that make that kind of investment worthwhile. Probably someone's pet project, and a shady Quebec company will get the job.

I've taken the train from Toronto to Montreal and found it to be quite busy. It's a good, cheaper option than flights (obviously, we will see what the ticket cost is comparatively).

Also, i used to fly in/out of Montreal and Toronto for work. The amount of business people flying to/from Toronto and Montreal on a daily basis was pretty crazy, and easily the busiest inter-city flights

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Is that actually happening, or is it just sour grapes from the white guy losing their job opportunity to a more qualified individual? Like how do you even prove your anecdotal "evidence". At least the DEI side have stats to back up their claims.

Spoiler!

If that is what was happening, I would be all for it. However, I have witnessed the opposite.

This isn't entirely true, and is actually not the case in terms of your example regarding police officers.

With respect to authority positions, like police officers, it's not always about "the best person regardless of ethnicity".

It can be seen in the US. If you look at a place like Jackson Mississippi. It has the highest percentage of black Americans among its population. 80% of the cities population is black.

Let's say that we do blind hiring - no names, no faces. Truthfully, im not a cop, so i dont know exactly what goes into that process, but lets say on its all based on "merit" - whatever that means when hiring a cop: lets say, college graduation.

In 2022, at Mississippi college, 914 degrees were awarded to white students, compared to 340 degrees to Black or African American students. a 3:1 ratio.

So, in the city of Jackson, 25% of cops are black, and 75% are white - again based on "merit" or an equal opportunity. We would all agree that this is "fair"

But, knowing what we know about police officers, their positions and authority, as well as (and perhaps more importantly) the public perception of police officers and the fact that typically if you are interacting with a cop, it is a stressful event; how does having 75% white cops in a city full of 80% black people going to look? more importantly, how does that effect the overall operation and function of society?

For a lot of people, representation matters. Being white, we don't notice it, because we have never had to.

In your example, French Canadians, the same thing applies. its just less noticeable because it's language/culture and not race.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I've taken the train from Toronto to Montreal and found it to be quite busy. It's a good, cheaper option than flights (obviously, we will see what the ticket cost is comparatively).

Also, i used to fly in/out of Montreal and Toronto for work. The amount of business people flying to/from Toronto and Montreal on a daily basis was pretty crazy, and easily the busiest inter-city flights

I regularly take the train from Kingston to Toronto (for work). Its faster than driving (even on the existing rickety old tracks).

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think the second half of the statement was correct structurally. But I'd be Ok with revising the statement to say, "most politically engaged people understand the difference"

PP still have an above average chance of winning, because most people do not know.

Right. And people reading and commenting on Carney’s interviews at this point are political engaged.

[Party Elephant]

It should be noted that one of the partners in the Alto project is the SNCF (French national railways), who have been building and operating high speed rail since the 1970s.

[flamesfever]

2. Forgetting the contribution of those who worked and sacrificed to get us where we are today. e.g. renaming schools, streets, and tearing down statues

"Hiding the fact that people did terrible things just because the also did some good things is just as bad. Pointing renaming a bridge because the guy we named it after was the architect of an abusive system isn't rewriting, or ignoring history, it's the opposite of that. It's making sure we are fully aware of that history, and the entirely of the impact that person had, and more importantly, deciding if we want to honor them within the context of their entire body of work."

I am fairly sure the young people, pushing down the statues, did not do the work you are suggesting.

As an older person, I see too much presentism going on these days, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.

I do not believe there has been enough criticism of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The main problem is that anyone, who attempts to do so, is running the risk of being called a racist. How many graves have been dug up to establish the truth?

I know what it was like to be ripped away from my parents, at the age of 3, and put in an institution for one and a half years. I can tell you from experience, the kids were worse than the attendants.

[Ped]

But only presenting those historical figures as good and worthy of honour is a problem. People in general are not all good or all bad; we can acknowledge the value they brought but also acknowledge that they had pretty crappy ideas. We dont need a statue to honour their accomplishments.



Ryerson, for example, with the residential schools - lots of people argue he was trying to educate the natives. What he was really trying to do (not him alone), but the aim of the schools, was to push away their culture, teach them English and how to farm, and that's all natives were good for, because they were inferior.


How do natives and descendants of residential school survivors feel about attending a school named after the guy?



We just threw up statues and named stuff after people without fulling realizing everything they had done - the bad and the good.


Do we need a statue of John A MacDOnald to honour the contributions we made? Or do we just have to, I don't know, teach about it in schools and teach the bad stuff he did to?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

2. Forgetting the contribution of those who worked and sacrificed to get us where we are today. e.g. renaming schools, streets, and tearing down statues

"Hiding the fact that people did terrible things just because the also did some good things is just as bad. Pointing renaming a bridge because the guy we named it after was the architect of an abusive system isn't rewriting, or ignoring history, it's the opposite of that. It's making sure we are fully aware of that history, and the entirely of the impact that person had, and more importantly, deciding if we want to honor them within the context of their entire body of work."

I am fairly sure the young people, pushing down the statues, did not do the work you are suggesting.

As an older person, I see too much presentism going on these days, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.

I do not believe there has been enough criticism of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The main problem is that anyone, who attempts to do so, is running the risk of being called a racist. How many graves have been dug up to establish the truth?

I know what it was like to be ripped away from my parents, at the age of 3, and put in an institution for one and a half years. I can tell you from experience, the kids are worse than the attendants.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Ped

But only presenting those historical figures as good and worthy of honour is a problem. People in general are not all good or all bad; we can acknowledge the value they brought but also acknowledge that they had pretty crappy ideas. We dont need a statue to honour their accomplishments.



Ryerson, for example, with the residential schools - lots of people argue he was trying to educate the natives. What he was really trying to do (not him alone), but the aim of the schools, was to push away their culture, teach them English and how to farm, and that's all natives were good for, because they were inferior.


How do natives and descendants of residential school survivors feel about attending a school named after the guy?



We just threw up statues and named stuff after people without fulling realizing everything they had done - the bad and the good.


Do we need a statue of John A MacDOnald to honour the contributions we made? Or do we just have to, I don't know, teach about it in schools and teach the bad stuff he did to?

It's alright to teach the good and the bad, as long as it's done in context.

I don't think it is right to erase our history, and reduce the pride in our country.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

It's alright to teach the good and the bad, as long as it's done in context.

I don't think it is right to erase our history, and reduce the pride in our country.

Taking down a statue is not erasing history.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I don't think it is right to erase our history, and reduce the pride in our country.

As a 53 yr old white immigrant I am proud our country is trying to acknowledge and address the wrongs of the past.

I can't even begin to understand the trauma of residential schools for both child and parent.

If I came home from work and found my children gone, there wouldn't be enough anger and hatred available.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

2. Forgetting the contribution of those who worked and sacrificed to get us where we are today. e.g. renaming schools, streets, and tearing down statues

"Hiding the fact that people did terrible things just because the also did some good things is just as bad. Pointing renaming a bridge because the guy we named it after was the architect of an abusive system isn't rewriting, or ignoring history, it's the opposite of that. It's making sure we are fully aware of that history, and the entirely of the impact that person had, and more importantly, deciding if we want to honor them within the context of their entire body of work."

I am fairly sure the young people, pushing down the statues, did not do the work you are suggesting.

As an older person, I see too much presentism going on these days, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts.

I do not believe there has been enough criticism of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The main problem is that anyone, who attempts to do so, is running the risk of being called a racist. How many graves have been dug up to establish the truth?

I know what it was like to be ripped away from my parents, at the age of 3, and put in an institution for one and a half years. I can tell you from experience, the kids are worse than the attendants.

This is getting pretty desperate.

List your specific grievances in detail or stop shaking your fists at clouds for the sake of bitching about things that make you uncomfortable.

Stop blaming your worries about what other people might think for why you won’t say what you want to say if you feel there is a problem with something.

Otherwise shut the #### up.

The hypothetical opposition that you’re scared of could just as easily say they don’t want to criticize your positions because they don’t want you to call them #######s when they do it too.

[flamesfever]

nm

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

You're just a kid...I'm 87.

I hope I'm not the bearer of bad news for you, but the world has moved on from a lot of the views you grew up with. For good reason.