American Politics 4.0 - Orangeyou Glad He’s Back?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Coach

California isn't the only place that needs water.

The US can get oil inside its own borders too, has that prevented them from invading foreign nations for it? De-salinization comes with its own challenges of energy production, environmental impact and waste. Is there enough plants to actually combat worsening conditions? It doesn't seem like there is or there wouldn't be drought problems. How long does it take to build enough to meet their long-term water needs? The thing about water is that it's something no one really worries about until it's a problem. It won't be "oh hey we got 10 years of water left, we should build more de-salinization plants." It will be millions of people running out of water at once. And then they all need water within 3 days. How expensive or convenient it is won't matter.

And the US isn't the only place on Earth with this problem. We can't afford to be naive about holding most of the world's most precious (and dwindling) resource.

Its at that point where we call Kevin Costner and he'll sort it all out. Presumably all while grumbling about how nobody liked his movie and now they're all figuring it out!

[Coach]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

I think you're missing GGG's point. He is saying that the cost of building the infrastructure to move water from Canada's north, where the water is, to the USA is significantly higher than the cost of building infrastructure for desalination much closer to where the water is needed. Even if the water was needed in Arizona, the cost to build desalination plants in California or Oregon and then move the water to Arizona would still be cheaper than building a pipeline from Nunavut or the Yukon to Arizona.

I honestly don't know enough about desalinization economics, or even the economics of moving water via pipelines to really know this for sure. The figure given in the OP was pulled from nowhere and based on the price to move oil which is harvested in a variety of complicated ways that requires very specialized infrastructure and workers. There's a lot built into that cost of moving water figure vs de-salinization that is going overlooked. Can the current amount of plants handle the increase demand? How much does it cost to build more and run them? How long will it take? If you have months left of water and no capacity to replace it and are years away from more de-salinization plants, your options become limited, because again, people need water every day to live. We don't need oil literally everyday to survive, but EVERYONE needs water all the time. It's not something you can handle a few weeks or even days of a shortage on.

To your point about people not caring about how expensive or convenient a solution is, I think you're really wrong about that. Time and time again, humans have proven that we would rather let people die than spend a lot of money on solving a problem (see Covid, climate change, famine, malaria, AIDS, etc)

When s*** hits the fan, no they don't care about cost (see War). The amount of people dying of climate change, covid, famine, or malaria in the US is basically a statistical blip compared to what would happen if/when water runs out. Of course those things don't move the needle they don't affect everyone every day or even at all (at least not perceptually). Water does. When they need it, it won't mater what's cost effective. It will matter what's easiest and fastest. And honestly, if you're the US, from a pure "Game of Risk" standpoint, taking Canada is the best long term solution not just for water, but basically everything. Even from an environmental standpoint it might be the best option. A water pipeline uses way less energy and produces no waste compared to de-salinization. This is how places like China and Russia think. They don't care about the lines the "West" drew. They're not on democracy time, new directions every few years. They're on Empire Time. If they need something they will take it. Because so did you. They don't see a difference between British Colonialism, Spanish Colonialism, Dutch Colonialism, American Colonialism, or their own. It doesn't matter if it's 1650, 1850 or 2050. It doesn't matter if the UN exists or not. This is what Trump wants for himself too. That's why the water issue makes me nervous. Because yes, people who respect borders and human rights and international law know they have to find different solutions. Trump wants the simplest solution that can happen now.

Call a National Security Emergency.
Send the military to occupy the best watersheds.
Start it in barrels on trucks and trains until pipelines can be finished.
It sounds ridiculous but he's the one talking about it. He being THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. I don't care that he's a d***less moron. He's still a d***less moron in charge of the US military openly talking about hostile takeover of this country.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Coach

I honestly don't know enough about desalinization economics, or even the economics of moving water via pipelines to really know this for sure. The figure given in the OP was pulled from nowhere and based on the price to move oil which is harvested in a variety of complicated ways that requires very specialized infrastructure and workers. There's a lot built into that cost of moving water figure vs de-salinization that is going overlooked. Can the current amount of plants handle the increase demand? How much does it cost to build more and run them? How long will it take? If you have months left of water and no capacity to replace it and are years away from more de-salinization plants, your options become limited, because again, people need water every day to live. We don't need oil literally everyday to survive, but EVERYONE needs water all the time. It's not something you can handle a few weeks or even days of a shortage on.

But pumping water over long distances requires vast amounts of energy as well. Based on the numbers I've seen, pumping water about 6-700 km uses the same energy as desalinating the same amount of water. So pumping it thousands of kilometres is a non-starter. Just the electricity costs would be 5-6x the price of desalination.

[photon]

Trump's going to be mad about this... How long before he calls for the shutdown of Time..

[Coach]

Originally Posted by opendoor

But pumping water over long distances requires vast amounts of energy as well. Based on the numbers I've seen, pumping water about 6-700 km uses the same energy as desalinating the same amount of water. So pumping it thousands of kilometres is a non-starter. Just the electricity costs would be 5-6x the price of desalination.

Fair enough, but it doesn't address the potential capacity issue and/or time to make enough plants to cover the people affected. We also have no idea how many people would actually need the water and where. Again I don't think the cost will matter it's "what can we build the fastest and easiest to get this stuff the fastest and easiest" and I believe that will land on pipelines and probably, initially, trucks with barrels. I think it's a misnomer to think that people will always default to the most cost-effective solution. We absolutely do not. If that were true Canada would have a bunch more pipelines and LNG ports. Idealism can get in the way of proper solutions. And idealism doesn't just include environmentalists. Trump is an idealist, but his ideal is him as King of a strong and potentially expanding America.

Look it's a hypothetical, but I think thinking about water just like any other resource that goes into our cars or phones is slippery mistake. The main point is, when people need it, they will come for it. And it's not even just about water. We can't be blind to what Canada would look like to an imperialist. Small and likely easy to take population, basically limitless resources, crazy amounts of space for all your unwanted, and Arctic supremacy. Trump is old AF so I can believe he'll be dead before he does anything insane but if people like him continue to be the trend in America, it'll trouble for Canada.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Coach

I honestly don't know enough about desalinization economics, or even the economics of moving water via pipelines to really know this for sure. The figure given in the OP was pulled from nowhere and based on the price to move oil which is harvested in a variety of complicated ways that requires very specialized infrastructure and workers. There's a lot built into that cost of moving water figure vs de-salinization that is going overlooked. Can the current amount of plants handle the increase demand? How much does it cost to build more and run them? How long will it take? If you have months left of water and no capacity to replace it and are years away from more de-salinization plants, your options become limited, because again, people need water every day to live. We don't need oil literally everyday to survive, but EVERYONE needs water all the time. It's not something you can handle a few weeks or even days of a shortage on.



When s*** hits the fan, no they don't care about cost (see War). The amount of people dying of climate change, covid, famine, or malaria in the US is basically a statistical blip compared to what would happen if/when water runs out. Of course those things don't move the needle they don't affect everyone every day or even at all (at least not perceptually). Water does. When they need it, it won't mater what's cost effective. It will matter what's easiest and fastest. And honestly, if you're the US, from a pure "Game of Risk" standpoint, taking Canada is the best long term solution not just for water, but basically everything. Even from an environmental standpoint it might be the best option. A water pipeline uses way less energy and produces no waste compared to de-salinization. This is how places like China and Russia think. They don't care about the lines the "West" drew. They're not on democracy time, new directions every few years. They're on Empire Time. If they need something they will take it. Because so did you. They don't see a difference between British Colonialism, Spanish Colonialism, Dutch Colonialism, American Colonialism, or their own. It doesn't matter if it's 1650, 1850 or 2050. It doesn't matter if the UN exists or not. This is what Trump wants for himself too. That's why the water issue makes me nervous. Because yes, people who respect borders and human rights and international law know they have to find different solutions. Trump wants the simplest solution that can happen now.

Call and National Security Emergency.
Send the military to occupy the best watersheds.
Start it in barrels on trucks and trains until pipelines can be finished.
It sounds ridiculous but he's the one talking about it. He being THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. I don't care that he's a d***less moron. He's still a d***less moron in charge of the US military openly talking about hostile takeover of this country.

I'm not an expert on the cost differences either, and I'm taking GGGs numbers as a starting point that I can't confirm with my own knowledge. That said, there aren't even roads to most of the water in the Canadian north. Just loading water on trucks and moving it isn't as quick and easy as you're suggesting. Building a road network across vast distances and mountain ranges is even more expensive than building pipe lines.

I did a bit of googling. From this article: https://medium.com/@desalter/plant-p...y-2c31f7fcb690

The cost of a 25 MGD desalination plant is up to $100M.

From this article: https://blog.midwestind.com/cost-of-building-road/

The cost of a mile of 2 lane paved road is $2M to $3M per mile. So at best a Desalination plant costs the same as 50 miles of road.

Some more googling says the average resident of Phoenix Arizona uses 100 gallons a day. A big tanker truck carries 6000 gallons. So enough for 60 people. Phoenix population is 4.7M. So you would need 78,000+ trucks of water PER DAY! Just for one medium sized city in the US. This does not sound feasible.

Anyway, I don't disagree that a fascist state might try to take our resources, I just think the logistics of moving significant quantities of water is higher than it seems.

[Mr.Coffee]

Feels like it’s been a quiet couple days from old Trumpy. Wonder what he is up to. Whatever it is I feel like the quiet is worse than the noise because I’m sure it’s ####ing terrible.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Feels like it’s been a quiet couple days from old Trumpy. Wonder what he is up to. Whatever it is I feel like the quiet is worse than the noise because I’m sure it’s ####ing terrible.

He caused a lot of noise. Threw a couple 30-day Amnesties in...this is the eye of the storm.

More insanity inevitably awaits.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by photon

Trump's going to be mad about this... How long before he calls for the shutdown of Time..

So Musk is out now?

[troutman]

“But let’s just imagine for a second that somehow they do make this happen and Canada does become a state. Do they think it would be a red state? There are 41 million people living in Canada. They’re about the same number we have in California. California has 54 electoral votes. If Canada also had 54 electoral votes, forget MAGA — our next president will be a kindhearted lesbian moose.” — JIMMY KIMMEL

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Feels like it’s been a quiet couple days from old Trumpy. Wonder what he is up to. Whatever it is I feel like the quiet is worse than the noise because I’m sure it’s ####ing terrible.

It has been just over 48 hours since he threatened an ethnic cleansing, has repeated his desire to make Canada a 51st state, worked towards defunding aid to developing nations, moved toward dismantling the department of education, and there has been an increasing encroachment on governmental departments by an unelected oligarch.

During that time he also somehow managed to put an executive order in order to not allow trans people to play sports - because you know that Trump is very concerned about women's rights.

[Engine09]

Hopefully he's been busy meeting with his doctors who told him "we've found a lump". Wishful thinking, although he really does look and sound terrible, plus he's such a disingenuous, vile pig of a person.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Engine09

Hopefully he's been busy meeting with his doctors who told him "we've found a lump". Wishful thinking, although he really does look and sound terrible, plus he's such a disingenuous, vile pig of a person.

Doctor: "We've found a cancerous lump."
Melania: "Oh no, how serious?"
Doctor: "Well, you are married to it."

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

It would be funny if every one tuned Trump out.

When it's clear to both sides of the aisle that a guy has gone off the deep end, the strongest statement is to stop granting him an audience.

He does want people to think he's more powerful than a president. Too bad people won't give him that reality check, and instead they actually entertain and deliberate the question of whether he can do some of these ridiculous things he's suggesting.

[WideReceiver]

Hilarious

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/18L...ibextid=wwXIfr

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by WideReceiver

Hilarious

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/18L...ibextid=wwXIfr

Easy Gramps

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

It would be funny if every one tuned Trump out.

When it's clear to both sides of the aisle that a guy has gone off the deep end, the strongest statement is to stop granting him an audience.

He does want people to think he's more powerful than a president. Too bad people won't give him that reality check, and instead they actually entertain and deliberate the question of whether he can do some of these ridiculous things he's suggesting.

It's the opposite I think. People like seeing their president in front of the press every day compared to the last 4 years.

Even if you disagree with 100% of the things Trump says, at least he says it.

[marsplasticeraser]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's the opposite I think. People like seeing their president in front of the press every day compared to the last 4 years.

Even if you disagree with 100% of the things Trump says, at least he says it.

I feel like that is not even remotely true. Just looking at stats of cspan shows that people don’t want to watch politics that much.

People dont care about policy, and great leaders dont have so much disorder they need to be in front of the nation daily.

But we’ve seen how much the general public likes drama though. Look how people tune into Jersey shore or Real Housewives by the millions. That is where Trump is operating.

A reasonable discussion would be whether we want the people we elect to build our society should be as focused on ratings and coverage as the producers of trash tv.

And trumps operating style reminds me of this skit: https://youtu.be/3ss-59fi4nM

He is watched by non-idiots because they can’t believe how idiotically he behaves.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Feels like it’s been a quiet couple days from old Trumpy. Wonder what he is up to. Whatever it is I feel like the quiet is worse than the noise because I’m sure it’s ####ing terrible.

Quiet couple of days? The Gaza thing was just 2 days ago, and he reiterated today that Gaza will be given to the US by Israel. Add to this the Christian inquisition department executive order he signed yesterday he's just getting warmed up.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Trump has fired the board of the Kennedy Arts Center and installed himself as chairman.

So... strippers and Lee Greenwood then?