Bush commutes "Scooter" Libby sentence.

[Wookie]

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Kool Keef

First off, you're way too emotional about this.

Second, and more important -- Libby wasn't pardoned. He had his sentence commuted. Simply put, the man doesn't serve any jail time. He still has to pay the fine of $250,000 and the charges stick. He can't even vote anymore. If it's still not enough for you then fine, you're entitled to your outrage, but if you're going to be this steamed about something at least have your facts in order.

Finally, here is a list of the "controversial" pardons and commutations by Clinton from Wikipedia. You can judge for yourself if any of these guys are in the same league as Libby.

• Carlos A. Vignali had his sentence for cocaine trafficking commuted, after serving 6 of 15 years in federal prison.
• Almon Glenn Braswell was pardoned of his mail fraud and perjury convictions, even while a federal investigation was underway regarding additional money laundering and tax evasion charges.[12] Braswell and Carlos Vignali each paid approximately $200,000 to Hillary Clinton's brother, Hugh Rodham, to represent their respective cases for clemency. Hugh Rodham returned the payments after they were disclosed to the public. Braswell would later invoke the Fifth Amendment at a Senate Committee hearing in 2001, when questioned about allegations of his having systematically defrauded senior citizens of millions of dollars.[13]
• Marc Rich, a fugitive, was pardoned of tax evasion, after clemency pleas from Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, among many other international luminaries. Denise Rich, Marc's former wife, was a close friend of the Clintons and had made substantial donations to both Clinton's library and Hillary's Senate campaign. Clinton agreed to a pardon that required Marc Rich to pay a $100,000,000 fine before he could return to the United States. According to Paul Volcker's independent investigation of Iraqi Oil-for-Food kickback schemes, Marc Rich was a middleman for several suspect Iraqi oil deals involving over 4 million barrels of oil.[14]
• Susan McDougal, who had already completed her sentence, was pardoned for her role in the Whitewater scandal; McDougal had served 18 months on contempt charges for refusing to testify about Clinton's role.
• Dan Rostenkowski, a former Democratic Congressman convicted in the Congressional Post Office Scandal. Rostenkowski had served his entire sentence.
• Melvin J. Reynolds, a Democratic Congressman from Illinois, who was convicted of bank fraud, 12 counts of sexual assault, obstruction of justice, and solicitation of child pornography had his sentence commuted on the bank fraud charged and was allowed to serve the final months under the auspices of a half way house. He had served his entire sentence on child sex abuse charges before the commutation of the later convictions.
• Roger Clinton, the president's half-brother, on drug charges after having served the entire sentence more than a decade before. Roger Clinton would be charged with drunk driving and disorderly conduct in an unrelated incident within a year of the pardon.[15] He was also briefly alleged to have been utilized in lobbying for the Braswell pardon, among others.

Now that's just dumb.

I can't even believe you're comparing Bush to Clinton. One is a criminal, while the other is not.

[Kool Keef]

Originally Posted by ikaris

I can't even believe you're comparing Bush to Clinton. One is a criminal, while the other is not.

Allright, I'll bite, which President is a criminal and what is the crime?

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by Kool Keef

Allright, I'll bite, which President is a criminal and what is the crime?

haha, i was thinking the same thing...

I would take a criminal lover over a criminal liar though any day... not to say either is ideal...



Claeren.

[Vulcan]

Claeren, just put me down as getting old and cynical.
The thing with outing Plame was to descredit her husband, Wilson's investigation into Saddam's efforts to get nuclear material.Wilson found that Saddam wasn't trying to get uranium. Bush wanted to ignore the facts so he could accuse Saddam of having WMD. One of the two major bogus reasons for invading Iraq.

[FunkMasterFlame]

Keith Olbermann has a Special Comment about Libby's party in which he calls on Bush and Cheney to resign.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19588942/

Bravo!

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame

Keith Olbermann has a Special Comment about Libby's party in which he calls on Bush and Cheney to resign.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19588942/

Bravo!

I can think of worse fates [gallows] I'd like Bush and Cheney to experience but that's my anger speaking.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I'm pretty sure the magnitude of the lies is a big factor in the sentencing. This isn't someone obstructing justice over a shoplifting charge.

I doubt it . . . . he actually hasn't been tried or convicted on anything related to your personal political opinions expressed earlier.

Second, I'm not arguing a commutation of Libby's sentence was justified. I think he should serve prison time for the crime of which he was convicted, obstructing justice, making false statements and two perjury counts.

Even then, this entire Libby thing seems odd given the special prosecutor was aware fairly early in his investigation that Richard Armitage was the leaker of Valeri Plame's identity. Armitage has never been charged with anything and isn't likely to be. A fairly neutral account of Armitage's role is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082801278.html

Martha Stewart wasn't convicted of insider trading. Similar to Libby, the government couldn't make a case against her for the crime everyone thinks she was convicted of. Instead, Stewart was convicted of lying to federal agents investigating the case and obstructing justice. Like Libby, Stewart had the reasonable right to silence but waived it, blabbed and said things that weren't truthful.

Like Libby, it wasn't necessarily the words that convicted her, it was the action of lying to obstruct.

So, we come back to the original question, was Scotter Libby given an appropriate sentence under federal guidelines (link below):

http://www.ussc.gov/2006guid/tabcon06_1.htm

. . . . . or did he get off lightly or was he persecuted as part of a political agenda?

Using those guidelines, a very nice - and pretty humourous - analysis at Wonkette which indicates 28 months is pretty much spot on, neither favouring him nor persecuting him:

http://wonkette.com/politics/scooter...ter-242054.php

In going through this exercise, I was merely curious, as with Hilton, if he'd been treated like a common person. On sentencing, the answer appears to be yes. The commutation, obviously, is another topic.

Cowperson

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

So, we come back to the original question, was Scotter Libby given an appropriate sentence under federal guidelines (link below):

http://www.ussc.gov/2006guid/tabcon06_1.htm

. . . . . or did he get off lightly or was he persecuted as part of a political agenda?

Cowperson

I already posted this on the first page of the thread in response to your original post:

And was it a severe or unusual punishment?

And when did i lose 'skill' points? hmm... I have posted tons of insightful stuff in the last 72 hours and i somewhere lost skill points? It must have been in this thread... ? Sorry... ??

[Burninator]

Claeren click on "User CP" it'll tell what you post you got rated on.

[Claeren]

Nevermind, i shouldn't discuss this here....

Thanks though!

[SeeGeeWhy]

Lie, lie, lie.

Cheat, cheat, cheat.

Steal, steal, steal.

Politicians suck huge wangsacktainthole because we let them, nay, expect them to.

Is this right? No. Will he get away with it? Yes.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Claeren

And when did i lose 'skill' points? hmm... I have posted tons of insightful stuff in the last 72 hours and i somewhere lost skill points? It must have been in this thread... ? Sorry... ??

Since I have nothing to do with skill points and have never lobbied for or against anyone regarding skill points, either publicly or privately, I'm sure I would have no idea. You seem a little paranoid about it though . . .

From the LA Times today regarding how Libby's sentence fits in with similar sentencing:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...la-home-center

Cowperson

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Since I have nothing to do with skill points and have never lobbied for or against anyone regarding skill points, either publicly or privately, I'm sure I would have no idea. You seem a little paranoid about it though . . .

haha... i am the same in that i just kind of ignored the whole thing and tried to keep my head low. But now that i have that stupid blue box next to my name it is kind of annoying. I am happy having no skill points, but negative?! Ack.... It is not like i was trolling or something. It is still the internet.... all someone has to do is take your post a little too seriously and you are in the same boat as Oiler and Canuck clowns?! I posted in the 'Help' section though to learn more because i have no idea how the system is supposed to work or be monitored...



Claeren.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Claeren

haha... i am the same in that i just kind of ignored the whole thing and tried to keep my head low. But now that i have that stupid blue box next to my name it is kind of annoying. I am happy having no skill points, but negative?! Ack.... It is not like i was trolling or something. It is still the internet.... all someone has to do is take your post a little too seriously and you are in the same boat as Oiler and Canuck clowns?! I posted in the 'Help' section though to learn more because i have no idea how the system is supposed to work or be monitored...



Claeren.

Live your life man. Don't let the little blue boxes rule you.

Cowperson

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Live your life man. Don't let the little blue boxes rule you.

Cowperson

haha, until i get a second blue box and then get banned or something!!

I like to have fun and now one or two misinterpretations and i am gone?

You should see the post i got it for too... brutal... It is funny because i actually know of other posts of mine that would be far more appropriate to 'flag'.... lol....

I don't know if we are supposed to post about this though?


Claeren.

[Bobblehead]

Bush has co-opted the system to gain more power than any of his predecessors in the last 60 years (link). He can't run again, so he is a lame duck president. He went from record approval ratings in the wake of 9/11 (around 90%) to near Watergate levels today(link). Outside of getting himself impeached, there is virtually no accountability.

Even today, Bush has not ruled out the possibility of a complete pardon for Libby.

A day after he intervened to keep Libby out of prison, Bush refused to reject the idea of issuing a full pardon, which some conservatives have been urging him to grant. A pardon would erase the four felony convictions Libby received for lying to federal investigators about his role in a White House leak of a covert CIA officer's identity.

link

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Bush has co-opted the system to gain more power than any of his predecessors in the last 60 years (link). He can't run again, so he is a lame duck president. He went from record approval ratings in the wake of 9/11 (around 90%) to near Watergate levels today(link). Outside of getting himself impeached, there is virtually no accountability.

Well, he was elected to a second term . . . . one can't argue there wasn't a referendum on his presidency. It was rather amazing, all things considered, but it happened.

What's interesting is that Congress is actually lower, by a fair margin, in popularity than Bush.

History shows us that every second term presidency since Eisenhower has descended into scandal, disgrace and abuse of power . . . . . so, sadly, this presidency is not particularly different. It wasn't so long ago that conspiracy theorists were telling us the Clinton's were assassinating their political opponents.

Lastly, as we've seen before, the checks and balances in the system, legal or legislative, tend to roll these things back into a state of equilibrium as time passes . . . . and that process appears to be happening now.

He's a lame duck for sure. History, however, seems to have a remarkable ability to rehabilitate even the most unpopular of Presidents, as we've seen from the examples of Ford and Carter.

Cowperson

[Bobblehead]

What's interesting is that Congress is actually lower, by a fair margin, in popularity than Bush.

Actually, that isn't the case right now. Per a Washington Post article:

In an early June AP-Ipsos poll, 32 percent approved of his work, tying his low in that survey. Other June polls in which he set or tied his personal worst included 27 percent by CBS News, 31 percent by Fox News-Opinion Dynamics, 32 percent by CNN-Opinion Research Corp. and 26 percent by Newsweek.
.
.
.
Congress had a 35 percent approval rating in a May AP-Ipsos survey. Polls in June found 27 percent approval by CBS News, 25 percent by Newsweek and 24 percent by Gallup-USA Today.

So it looks to me like the dis-approval spreads across the Federal systems.

History shows us that every second term presidency since Eisenhower has descended into scandal, disgrace and abuse of power . . . . . so, sadly, this presidency is not particularly different. It wasn't so long ago that conspiracy theorists were telling us the Clinton's were assassinating their political opponents.
I wonder if this is related to the post-FDR presidential term limit(22nd Amendment)? That timing seems pretty co-incidental since Eisenhower was the first President who would have been affected by this change

[Claeren]

I wonder if not being able to win a third term actually makes things worse?

Having to win back your mandate is accountability, so not having to win back your mandate can therefore be considered lack of accountability, no?

As easy as it is to blame the 'other side' from your own place on the spectrum (left or right), to laugh it off, to roll your eyes, etc. It IS a problem, and a serious one at that.


Claeren.