Aviation Appreciation Station v2

[Acey]

I was speaking specifically about pilots screwing up and nearly resulting in serious accidents, it happens all the time. This isn't always the end result.

So the evidence that this is Trump's fault is the fact that this is the first major crash in 16 years. Understood.

Originally Posted by fotze2

Were the pilots vaxxed?

Surely.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Acey

I was speaking specifically about pilots screwing up and nearly resulting in serious accidents, it happens all the time. This isn't always the end result.

So the evidence that this is Trump's fault is the fact that this is the first major crash in 16 years. Understood.



Surely.

Totally what I said...not that this happening right after he guts the whole system is ironic and shows how short sighted those moves were.

[Acey]

"Guts the whole system" is such an unnncessarily hyperbolic over-simplification of what was an admittedly dumb executive order but you make it sound like a bunch of teenagers tookover at DCA tower overnight.

For anyone who cares, this is what the Trump order did to the FAA:

I hereby order the Secretary of Transportation and the Federal Aviation Administrator to immediately return to non-discriminatory, merit-based hiring, as required by law. All so-called DEI initiatives, including all dangerous preferencing policies or practices, shall immediately be rescinded in favor of hiring, promoting, and otherwise treating employees on the basis of individual capability, competence, achievement, and dedication.

Contrary to popular belief, there was no actual freeze.

[Ryan Coke]

Dino, I’m not sure if you’re actually connecting Trumps many stupid actions having a direct connection to this accident or not…..or if you are just saying it’s ironic. But Acey is right, it would have no direct correlation to this accident.

And visual separation is not uncommon at all, and combined with controllers monitoring things it is usually safe. However there is a risk relying on visual separation, it isn’t as reliable as one would like. It’s too easy to think you have the correct traffic in sight, but you may be seeing another aircraft rather than the one that is actually the conflicting traffic, especially in busy airspace. I have seen it happen many times.

And there is nothing unusual about military training flights. That’s what the military does, they train all the time, especially in the states. That doesn’t mean it was anything crazy, likely just a routine training flight and they were doing routine maneuvering as they approached to land. But apparently they didn’t see the CRJ.

[dino7c]

This is an argument for another form but we aren't talking about one executive order...there have been MASSIVE cuts to all government agencies including the elimination of the Aviation Security Advisory Committee, heads of TSA and coast guard fired last week...I mean I'm sure he will put qualified people in those positions like always. I mean he chose an anti vaxxer to be secretary of health what could go wrong lol.

I'm saying the timing of this incident is ironic and shows how short sighted these cuts were...unfortunately history will likely prove it to be so. Yes he gut these systems and will continue to do so and yes there will be consequences.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by dino7c

This is an argument for another form but we aren't talking about one executive order...there have been MASSIVE cuts to all government agencies including the elimination of the Aviation Security Advisory Committee, heads of TSA and coast guard fired last week...I mean I'm sure he will put qualified people in those positions like always. I mean he chose an anti vaxxer to be secretary of health what could go wrong lol.

I'm saying the timing of this incident is ironic and shows how short sighted these cuts were...unfortunately history will likely prove it to be so. Yes he gut these systems and will continue to do so and yes there will be consequences.

Yeah, I think I get what you’re saying and I agree. Hopefully it won’t get too bad in the next 4 years. Though I said that 8 years ago…..
Either way that’s more of a US political thread discussion.

[Acey]

I'm still not fully on board. The head of coast guard and TSA have as much to do with this accident or aviation as a slice bread does and one could argue that they are not the guts of their agencies, but nevertheless I will patiently await the NTSB report announcing that Trump ending FAA DEI is the primary contributing factor of this accident, or any accident between now and the end of his presidency when the order is reversed.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Yeah, I think I get what you’re saying and I agree. Hopefully it won’t get too bad in the next 4 years. Though I said that 8 years ago…..
Either way that’s more of a US political thread discussion.

hard to seperate...like you want irony?

Trump is on social media right now blaming the air traffic controllers I kid you not.

"Why didn’t the control tower tell the helicopter what to do instead of asking if they saw the plane,”
This is a bad situation that looks like it should have been prevented. NOT GOOD!!!”

direct quote...if I said that you guys would be roasting me worse then you are now

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Acey

I'm still not fully on board. The head of coast guard and TSA have as much to do with this accident or aviation as a slice bread does and one could argue that they are not the guts of their agencies, but nevertheless I will patiently await the NTSB report announcing that Trump ending FAA DEI is the primary contributing factor of this accident, or any accident between now and the end of his presidency when the order is reversed.

Trump is blaming the Control Tower on social media...has he been briefed or is he talking out his ass?

[Acey]

Not really... you blaming Trump is similarly silly to Trump blaming the controller... neither of you understand how air traffic control or aviation rules work so you're speaking from a similar frame of reference. Kinda like the stark revelation that stopping DEI hiring will have no impact on a group of people that's already 98% white anyway, etc.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Acey

Not really... you blaming Trump is similarly silly to Trump blaming the controller... neither of you understand how air traffic control or aviation rules work so you're speaking from a similar frame of reference. Kinda like the stark revelation that stopping DEI hiring will have no impact on a group of people that's already 98% white anyway, etc.

So he's talking out his ass...and for the 1000th time I am saying its ironic and telling this happens so soon not that is was a direct cause. I'm also not talking about one executive order but the massive cuts at all levels.

[KelVarnsen]

I hate Trump and would love to see him JFK’d but it’s too early to blame him for this. Let’s see what the investigation finds.

[dino7c]

OMG I said its ironic it happens right after he guts multiple agencies related to airline safety not that there blood on his hands like he did to the California government last week (also ironic)

If only he was on that blackhawk though...imagine "pilot error" taking out Trump. That would be the king of all conspiracies.

[STeeLy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

hard to seperate...like you want irony?

Trump is on social media right now blaming the air traffic controllers I kid you not.

"Why didn’t the control tower tell the helicopter what to do instead of asking if they saw the plane,”
This is a bad situation that looks like it should have been prevented. NOT GOOD!!!”

direct quote...if I said that you guys would be roasting me worse then you are now

Tower DID tell the helicopter what to do, the instruction was to "Pass Behind" which in Helicopter VFR flying in a controlled area with fixed wing traffic should be a decently common instruction.


Controllers will not make things more complicated than they need to. They have an airspace (also an airport's maneuvering area if they're also doing ground) they control, the more words and time the controller uses with one plane, the less time they have to focus on others. If it was easier and still safe to tell the helicopter to spot traffic then pass behind (and it generally is) then it's what they will do. If they gave it a heading and altitude instruction, the controller has to now monitor the helicopter much more closely giving way to potentially missing other traffic needing instructions. I can bet that in IMC they would absolutely be giving heading and altitude to the helicopter (or the helicopter just wouldn't fly).


On another thought:

I do wonder how much traffic there is in the area at the time of the accident. Could the helicopter seen the wrong traffic thinking it was the right one? If it's a busy airspace and if multiple runways are in use at DCA at the same time, with it being at night (difficult in identifying company's tails), helicopter pilots saw a set of lights in the general direction that ATC said but it wasn't actually who they were looking for.

[Minnie]

From the BBC -

Several" athletes, coaches and family members involved with US Figure Skating were on the flight, the sport's US governing body said in a statement.

Russian citizens were also on board, the Kremlin confirmed - after local media reported that ice skating coaches and former world champions Yevgenia Shishkova and Vadim Naumov were on the plane.

The statement from US Figure Skating confirmed that "several members of our skating community were sadly aboard American Airlines Flight 5342".

The group were returning home from a development camp in Wichita, Kansas, the statement added.

Wichita hosted the US National Figure Skating championships from 20 January to 26 January. Following the competition, there was a development camp for young skaters.

Without specifying names, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov confirmed the "sad information" that Russian citizens were on the flight - following Russian news agency reports that named Shishkova and Naumov.

The married couple are retired Russian pairs skaters who won the world championships in 1994. They also competed at the Olympics. They now work as coaches in the US.

Inna Volyanskaya, a former skater who competed for the pre-1991 Soviet Union, was also reported to have been on board the plane, TASS said. She was a coach at the Washington figure skating club, according to its website.

[Bigtime]

I would recommend keeping informed on this from the excellent team at The Air Current, as the provide any aviation safety articles free of charge:

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...irline-safety/

[Fuzz]

"God forbid waking up and looking in a mirror one day and saying, 'Wow, I was warned. I was warned, and I shouldn't have done this,'" Kaine said.

https://www.newsweek.com/lawmakers-v...-crash-2023484

Uh, good morning US lawmakers...

awmakers had previously raised concerns about increasing the number of flights to and from Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport before Wednesday's midair collision.

Senators from Virginia and Maryland spoke out against the proposals included in the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Reauthorization Act, which was approved by Congress in 2024.

Senators Mark R. Warner, Tim Kaine, Ben Cardin and Chris Van Hollen said in April 2024 statement: "While the bill contains many positive features, the Senate is poised to consider a provision that could impair safety and will significantly increase delay and inconvenience experienced by the nearly 25 million passengers who use Reagan National Airport (DCA) every year. The provision will overburden the already congested main runway at DCA and, as shown by a recent near-collision at the airport, increase the risk of a serious accident there."

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Totally what I said...not that this happening right after he guts the whole system is ironic and shows how short sighted those moves were.

If you believe that things are rough in the US and don't like the gutting of the system you definitely don't want to dig in too deep into the problems in Canada. I know one of the top ATC guys at NavCan and it is a very dire situation there.

[Hydrotherapy]

I listened to an interesting podcast about human/technical errors in Air Traffic control in Germany. https://casefilepodcast.com/case-106...ielsen-part-1/
I thought it was going to be boring, but it was really informative and educational about the whole profession. I know I could never do it. Freakin stressful.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

On another thought:

I do wonder how much traffic there is in the area at the time of the accident. Could the helicopter seen the wrong traffic thinking it was the right one? If it's a busy airspace and if multiple runways are in use at DCA at the same time, with it being at night (difficult in identifying company's tails), helicopter pilots saw a set of lights in the general direction that ATC said but it wasn't actually who they were looking for.

Exactly. It is challenging in the day, even harder at night. At night depth perception of how far away a light is, is incredibly difficult. And you aren’t seeing tail markings or type of aircraft unless you are very close.

An example of the type of clearance you’d get would be “Blackhawk 1, follow an American CRJ 11 o’clock, 5 miles, descending through 2000 feet. Pass behind and cleared the visual runway 30”.

So the crew looks ahead and a little to their left, up high, and sees some flashing lights, and thinks that’s their traffic. But turns out they’re now looking at an airplane, could be any type, that is just transiting the area, or maneuvering for another airport in the area, or whatever. But they aren’t actually seeing the plane they need to follow. Not to mention they are busy with a whole bunch of other things to do as they make their approach.

Meanwhile the CRJ would have an even more difficult time seeing the helicopter; they are looking downwards into all the city and airport lights, so they are trying to see a very small objects flashing lights moving, amongst a sea of lights. It is very challenging seeing a helicopter from above at night.

Ideally the controller is still monitoring this potential conflict, but if they are already very busy they are likely dealing with a bunch of other things, and they are now trusting the helicopter. But if the controller has shifted their attention, and the helicopter has identified the wrong plane as being their traffic to follow, and they happen to be on an exact collision trajectory….


Edit to add, Just saw the actual ATC comms on the other thread, instead of my hypotheticals, though all my points still stand.