2024 Toronto Blue Jays Season Thread

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Inferno

https://twitter.com/user/status/1881398591534838127

Doesn't seem like a bad price at all, if I may add. Potentially a steal.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Santander for 5 years is probably a good move and should be fine. But it should have been done before. Now it just seems like teams are going to milk the Jays knowing their position, if anything. Given the rumors of players not being happy with the team last year, and nobody truly signing with the Jays this year, I do wonder if there's a trust piece where players don't trust the Jays management. Who could blame them? Fans, although completely perception and bias, smelled fake rats the moment the management team was brought in.

Comments like this always make me laugh.

It couldn't have been done before. Santander probably wasn't going to sign before now and MLB Free Agency has been really drawn out in recent years.

Guys like Bregman, Alonso, Santander have all been waiting. So I don't think it's just some situation the Jays unilaterally had control over.

And in the end attracting free agents isn't just an issue for the Blue Jays with the Mets and Dodgers really flashing their pocket books in desirable markets.

The Giants who are in a good market in San Francisco have really struggled too. They were in on Burnes, Snell opted out his contract to go to LA,
and now they are also rumored to be trying to convince Alonso to go there (but really doubtful he leaves the Mets).

Padres fans also feeling pretty burned with Soto not wanting to re-sign, then losing Roki Sasaki as well, and now Scott left them to the rival Dodgers too.

A lot of this "Sky is falling" concern is just because people don't seem to like Atkins or Shapiro, when really about 25 other teams are in the same position where it seems really difficult to attract any free agents or sign players right now.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Comments like this always make me laugh.

It couldn't have been done before. Santander probably wasn't going to sign before now and MLB Free Agency has been really drawn out in recent years.

Guys like Bregman, Alonso, Santander have all been waiting. So I don't think it's just some situation the Jays unilaterally had control over.

And in the end attracting free agents isn't just an issue for the Blue Jays with the Mets and Dodgers really flashing their pocket books in desirable markets.

The Giants who are in a good market in San Francisco have really struggled too. They were in on Burnes, Snell opted out his contract to go to LA,
and now they are also rumored to be trying to convince Alonso to go there (but really doubtful he leaves the Mets).

Padres fans also feeling pretty burned with Soto not wanting to re-sign, then losing Roki Sasaki as well, and now Scott left them to the rival Dodgers too.

A lot of this "Sky is falling" concern is just because people don't seem to like Atkins or Shapiro, when really about 25 other teams are in the same position where it seems really difficult to attract any free agents or sign players right now.

Fair enough. But you do have to agree that Atkins has not had the success he's wanted for their payroll, nor an obvious strategy of where they're heading. The criticism towards Atkins is well warranted specifically. His job is to win through trades and signings. He's not been able to succeed there. He's not been able to draft and develop prospects. His defence at the expense of offence has shown to be a failure, yet he's doubled down here. All in all, he's been a failure. Other front offices may be in similar situations too, I'm not excusing them, because your point is fair. But the critique against Atkins is fair.

[Inferno]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1881406960702251308

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Fair enough. But you do have to agree that Atkins has not had the success he's wanted for their payroll, nor an obvious strategy of where they're heading. The criticism towards Atkins is well warranted specifically. His job is to win through trades and signings. He's not been able to succeed there. He's not been able to draft and develop prospects. His defence at the expense of offence has shown to be a failure, yet he's doubled down here. All in all, he's been a failure. Other front offices may be in similar situations too, I'm not excusing them, because your point is fair. But the critique against Atkins is fair.

The critique is fine but it doesn't apply to every decision or move they make.
We can agree they are not a good front office and have not had a good offseason and also agree this seems like a good signing.

Bad front offices still make good moves.

So it comes off a bit as "Good move but you still suck!". Which is true.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The critique is fine but it doesn't apply to every decision or move they make.
We can agree they are not a good front office and have not had a good offseason and also agree this seems like a good signing.

Bad front offices still make good moves.

So it comes off a bit as "Good move but you still suck!". Which is true.

Oh for sure. Getting Santander for that price is very good. I do still think they still suck. There's a lot to do still so I'd expect a ton of moves this week and next.

[Strange Brew]

The OBP is what concerns you about Santander, barely above .300 for his career. I thought you might be able to get him on a shorter term deal because of that.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The OBP is what concerns you about Santander, barely above .300 for his career. I thought you might be able to get him on a shorter term deal because of that.

Agree. $18.5M is a good deal though. With this years’ market I expected $25M.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Agree. $18.5M is a good deal though. With this years’ market I expected $25M.

I think the low OBP combined with the fact that at least some of those 5 years are almost certainly DH years is why its $18.5 and not $25.

[Samonadreau]

Not a huge Santander fan and I think that contracy will age like milk by years 3-5 but at least they did something i guess. His WAR is decent so maybe I undervalue him as overrated just because if his homeruns.

I promise to be optimistic.

[SuperMatt18]

To me this is just a move to try to rectify the mistake that was moving Hernandez.

At least Santander is also 2 years younger though, so 5 x $90 ends up being similar to the 3 x $66 that the Dodgers gave Teoscar.

Santander also has an opt out after 3 years...which I actually don't hate for the Jays.

Hopefully he has a great first 3 years for the Jays, opts out, and somebody else overpays him for 33-38 years.

[Jason14h]

Paying for a career year at 30 for a guy who can't play D or get on base

Sure for 1 or 2 years its fine. Wait. 90 million for 5 years????


HAHAHAHAHAH

The Jays are paying him and Miles Straw 24 million combined next season .

Amazing work this week Jays. Amazing

[ben voyonsdonc]

Santander, on his own, doesn’t move the needle much for me. The Jays really need a second big bat to go along with him…it really sucks that Orelvis got suspended last year because he is very much an unknown commodity coming into this season which requires us to look to free agency for an additional power bat.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

At least they did something. A guy with power? Sounds good to me.

Next up, sign Alonso and extend Vladdy then I’ll start being happy with the offseason.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Fair enough. But you do have to agree that Atkins has not had the success he's wanted for their payroll, nor an obvious strategy of where they're heading. The criticism towards Atkins is well warranted specifically. His job is to win through trades and signings. He's not been able to succeed there. He's not been able to draft and develop prospects. His defence at the expense of offence has shown to be a failure, yet he's doubled down here. All in all, he's been a failure. Other front offices may be in similar situations too, I'm not excusing them, because your point is fair. But the critique against Atkins is fair.

I still think they get more than their fair share of criticism. AA's best stretch of baseball in Toronto were 83, 93, 89 win seasons. Atkins and Shapiro had a stretch of 91, 92, 89.

Have they been perfect...Nope. But I think sometimes their biggest critique is just that they aren't AA.

To me the biggest and most fair criticism has to actually be their contract management, with drafting a close second.

Free agent signings have mostly been good: Gausman, Ryu, Semien, IKF, Kiermaier, etc were all pretty good signings. The Springer signing was an overpayment, but also a signing I get because they were trying to signal a bit of a culture change.

Trades are a bit of a mixed bag but overall still pretty good.

Berrios...a win.
Ray...huge win
Chapman...still a win although probably should have made a bigger effort to re-sign him.
Francis/Richards for Tellez...looks like it will be a win
Varsho for Gurriel and Moreno...kind of a push right now based on WAR but looks like it will be a loss long term due to Varsho's bat.
Hernandez for Swanson/Mack...this is a loss longer term, but in season 1 when Swanson was great for the bullpen it didn't look as bad, but really depends if Teoscar could have been re-signed to stay here or if he was walking after 2023 anyways.
Gimenez + Sandlin for Horwitz + Mitchell...I think we look back at this in 12 months as a steal of a deal.

But in the end the only piece they gave up in a trade that really hurts long term is Moreno because Gurriel and Teoscar didn't have much control left anyways.

Drafting is the biggest question or flaw for that team mostly because they haven't been able to draft any stars in the first round, even though overall drafting is probably okay.

2016: Bichette, Biggio as notables...with TJ Zeuch being the first round bust.

2017: Nate Pearson is the notable that was derailed with injury, Warmouth was the first round that didn't work out. Davis Schneider was a 28th round pick.

2018: Groshans, Conine, Kloffenstein, and Barger the notable names but no stars again.

2019: Manoah, Horwitz, Eden played games for the Jays, Manoah looked like a superstar...until he wasn't anymore.

2020: Martin is the biggest notable...at least got value in a trade for him.

2021: Hoglund, Tiedemann...got value in a trade for Hoglund, hopefully Tiedemann is something.

Probably too soon to really say too much about any of the 2022 and onwards picks.

International Free Agents have been pretty okay, especially early on, and maybe makes up for a bit of the drafting woes: Signed Moreno, Gurriel Jr, Alejandro Kirk, Pardinho (ranked 6th in 2017), Orelvis Martinez (ranked 7 in 2018).

Now where they've struggled a bit is keeping guys like Ray, Semien, and Chapman who they made good moves to get, but then couldn't convince to stay longer term. And then of course now with the Vladdy and Bo Bichette contract scenarios (but some bad luck involved there too where those players inconsistency made it hard to commit longer term).

Lots of room for improvement for sure, but they get talked about like they have done nothing good for the franchise and everything is terrible. Which really hasn't been the case at all. They just haven't been able to get the team over the hump.

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Paying for a career year at 30 for a guy who can't play D or get on base

Sure for 1 or 2 years its fine. Wait. 90 million for 5 years????


HAHAHAHAHAH

The Jays are paying him and Miles Straw 24 million combined next season .

Amazing work this week Jays. Amazing

$18m is pretty much market value for a guy who has hit 33, 28 and 44 HR the last 3 seasons. The AAV on the deal is market value for the player. 5 years is on the long side for sure, but that's the cost of doing business for the Jays, always has been.

As far as defense goes, yeah you would love to have plus defenders at every position, it's just not reality. Every position player the Dodgers have is a negative defender at the position they are playing them, except maybe Freeman.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by JTech780

$18m is pretty much market value for a guy who has hit 33, 28 and 44 HR the last 3 seasons. The AAV on the deal is market value for the player. 5 years is on the long side for sure, but that's the cost of doing business for the Jays, always has been.

As far as defense goes, yeah you would love to have plus defenders at every position, it's just not reality. Every position player the Dodgers have is a negative defender at the position they are playing them, except maybe Freeman.

ESPN gives it a C-. I would give it a D

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/sto...trade-analysis

He put up a 2.9 War last season , 3.0 the season before , and 2.3 the year before

He is 30 already , can only play DH. And has a career .307 OBP

The second his bat slows down at all he’s the biggest contract anchor in the league

For 1 or 2 year as a DH on a contending team - Sure

For 5 years on the Jays . This will be 3x worse then the Springer deal

No one wanted to pay this guy what he wanted (or at least the term)

Jays overpaid because they struck out on everyone else and managed to get a salary anchor for 5 years

The Jays have spent 19 million on Santandar, 5 million on Straw , 15 million on Gimenez, and 11 million on Hoffman

50!!! Million a year spent on an aging DH who can’t get on base , a guy who won’t make the roster , a middle reliever who failed 2 physicals , and a speedy light hitting defensive 2B

We also give up a 2nd round pick and international signing money for the pleasure of signing Santandar to his retirement contract

How these guys have a job is beyond me at this point

[Inferno]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1881439248177619204

Dodgers fans are trying to play the hypocrite card but the issue people have with the Dodgers isn't really that they have deferred contracts. It's that they have 8 that total 1.375B. As far as I know this is the only one the Blue Jays have.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Inferno

https://twitter.com/user/status/1881439248177619204

Dodgers fans are trying to play the hypocrite card but the issue people have with the Dodgers isn't really that they have deferred contracts. It's that they have 8 that total 1.375B. As far as I know this is the only one the Blue Jays have.

Canada has high taxes and Im sure Santandar will retire to Florida for tax purposes in the future.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

ESPN gives it a C-. I would give it a D

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/sto...trade-analysis

He put up a 2.9 War last season , 3.0 the season before , and 2.3 the year before

He is 30 already , can only play DH. And has a career .307 OBP

The second his bat slows down at all he’s the biggest contract anchor in the league

For 1 or 2 year as a DH on a contending team - Sure

For 5 years on the Jays . This will be 3x worse then the Springer deal

No one wanted to pay this guy what he wanted (or at least the term)

Jays overpaid because they struck out on everyone else and managed to get a salary anchor for 5 years

The Jays have spent 19 million on Santandar, 5 million on Straw , 15 million on Gimenez, and 11 million on Hoffman

50!!! Million a year spent on an aging DH who can’t get on base , a guy who won’t make the roster , a middle reliever who failed 2 physicals , and a speedy light hitting defensive 2B

We also give up a 2nd round pick and international signing money for the pleasure of signing Santandar to his retirement contract

How these guys have a job is beyond me at this point

It's funny though that you trash some of the other moves that they also liked.

They love the Hoffman signing and gave it an A.

Gimenez was acquired for a pretty low acquisition cost and averaged over 5 WAR per season the past 3 seasons and they gave Gimenez acquisition a B+.

So sure they gave Santandar a C- ...while also saying he had better hitting numbers than Teoscar the last 3 seasons...and he is two years younger...and $4M cheaper per season...but they gave that signing a B.