[News] Flyers, 76ers announce plans for new arena

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, as a STH, I think I would probably have cancelled already, if there weren't a new arena pending. Anecdotal, obviously, but I have spoken with others that feel the same way.

This is what a lot are not understanding.

I have talked to numerous STHs and reps from the Flames side. Every year without a new building, it is becoming harder and harder to get people to renew and the new building is going to address a lot of those concerns.

Just because the Flames are averaging 17,000 doesn't mean a chunk of those people are happy. There is a large chunk of STHs who want the amenities of a new arena. It's not just bathroom lines and better concessions. The arena itself becomes a gathering spot in more ways than one.

For example- I wouldn't even host a birthday party at a Flames game. But in the new arena- I would consider it. That's just one simple example from my POV.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

This is what a lot are not understanding.

I have talked to numerous STHs and reps from the Flames side. Every year without a new building, it is becoming harder and harder to get people to renew and the new building is going to address a lot of those concerns.

Just because the Flames are averaging 17,000 doesn't mean a chunk of those people are happy. There is a large chunk of STHs who want the amenities of a new arena. It's not just bathroom lines and better concessions. The arena itself becomes a gathering spot in more ways than one.

For example- I wouldn't even host a birthday party at a Flames game. But in the new arena- I would consider it. That's just one simple example from my POV.

OK that's all good. And true.

The argument is why doesn't the owner spend his own money to improve your experience while you spend money on his product and entice more customers to attend and consume his entertainment product?

The vast majority of Calgarian taxpayers contributing to this will not see the incremental benefit from the new rink that STHs like you will see. If you, as a STH, don't like the current arena amenities, how is that everyone else's problem and why do they need to contribute financially to improve your experience?

I say this as someone who's company has STH and attends a dozen games a year.

[PepsiFree]

Love the idea of $800 million so one guy can just consider hosting his birthday party there.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

OK that's all good. And true.

The argument is why doesn't the owner spend his own money to improve your experience while you spend money on his product and entice more customers to attend and consume his entertainment product?

The vast majority of Calgarian taxpayers contributing to this will not see the incremental benefit from the new rink that STHs like you will see. If you, as a STH, don't like the current arena amenities, how is that everyone else's problem and why do they need to contribute financially to improve your experience?

I say this as someone who's company has STH and attends a dozen games a year.

You keep saying the owners aren't spending their own money. But they are contributing some, estimated to be $356M (present value).

The city, BTW, is contributing $537M up front. But then they will be receiving income from it, for the next 35 years, starting at $17M and rising at 1% per year. The present value of those revenues, when discounted for inflation, is over $400M. There are multiple factors involved, such as: is the city borrowing some or all of the initial cost, the cost of any financing, etc., but we can safely say that the net cost for the city will likely be somewhere between $100 and $200M

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You keep saying the owners aren't spending their own money. But they are contributing some, estimated to be $356M (present value).

Calgary Sports and Entertainment is spending $40 million up front, hell of deal.

The city, BTW, is contributing $537M up front. But then they will be receiving income from it, for the next 35 years, starting at $17M and rising at 1% per year.

That's not income, that's loan repayment.

This is the actual revenue the city will receive for their half a billion dollars up front cost.

2% cut of arena revenues and $2.5 million over 10 years from naming rights

Amazing.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Calgary Sports and Entertainment is spending $40 million up front, hell of deal.


That's not income, that's loan repayment.

This is the actual revenue the city will receive for their half a billion dollars up front cost.

Amazing.

No, it's not loan repayment - the city isn't lending CSEC any funds. It's revenues, generated from a ticket tax. It can be used to pay back a loan, if they borrow for the initial outlay, but it isn't a loan repayment.

The city will use the ticket tax, known as a “facility fee,” as a measure to recoup the city’s $515-million tab to build the event centre block. Overall, Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corp. will pay the city $17 million annually — $7 million coming from rent payments and $10 million from ticket tax revenues. (A one per cent escalation cost will be added each year.)

The annual payments from CSEC to the city are guaranteed, regardless of ticket demand, said Michael Thompson, general manager of infrastructure services at the City of Calgary.

“If ticket demand goes up or down in the future, if naming rights go up or down in the future, the city gets that consistent and reliable $17 million escalating at one per cent,” Thompson said.

[Rutuu]

When mentioning Calgary taxpayers, you have to also mention the Alberta tax payers that got the re-jigged deal over the line.

Now after the arena solves all issues for a period of time, will the team re-invest in the experience and keep going to the Flames games a top attraction that STHs and other fans value for their spend?

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Calgary Sports and Entertainment is spending $40 million up front, hell of deal.


That's not income, that's loan repayment.

This is the actual revenue the city will receive for their half a billion dollars up front cost.

Amazing.

Imagine being able to go pitch an outdoor concert venue to the city, put up 5% of the capital, and collect 98% of the revenue for 35yrs, with your other "share" cashflowing the payments.

If anyone pulls that off it's a 9 figure deal with a 10x+ gain.

[InternationalVillager]

The City of Calgary is getting a redeveloped east village hub for their money. They've been trying to accomplish this objective for the last 20 years.

As for allocation of funds etc - well that's Canada for you. No one in my family uses the transit system anymore in any capacity. Why is my family funding Transit projects? Or the libraries? Or the YMCAs? I don't complain about any of those issues so then people need to stop complaining about public funds being used for the arena and east village redevelopment.

Everyone can have their sense of entitlement when it comes to how general taxpayer funds are used.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

The City of Calgary is getting a redeveloped east village hub for their money. They've been trying to accomplish this objective for the last 20 years.

As for allocation of funds etc - well that's Canada for you. No one in my family uses the transit system anymore in any capacity. Why is my family funding Transit projects? Or the libraries? Or the YMCAs? I don't complain about any of those issues so then people need to stop complaining about public funds being used for the arena and east village redevelopment.

Everyone can have their sense of entitlement when it comes to how general taxpayer funds are used.

I would've been on board for building the arena, buying the team off of the current ownership, and forming a city corp, like Enmax that ran the entertainment portfolio and building.

That would've been a great outcome for tax payers.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

I would've been on board for building the arena, buying the team off of the current ownership, and forming a city corp, like Enmax that ran the entertainment portfolio and building.

That would've been a great outcome for tax payers.

The NHL would never allow a government entity to buy a franchise. The Board of Governors would blackball such a bid unanimously.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The NHL would never allow a government entity to buy a franchise. The Board of Governors would blackball such a bid unanimously.

The Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan owned the Leafs for a decade. Not truly a government entity but it was partly sponsored by the Government of Ontario
and it's board members are again partly selected by the same government.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by BigThief

The Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan owned the Leafs for a decade. Not truly a government entity but it was partly sponsored by the Government of Ontario
and it's board members are again partly selected by the same government.

For a good many years, the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan had the biggest single pool of investment capital in the world. The purpose of that investment capital (including the ownership stake in MLSE) was to make profits for the fund. The companies it invested in were not controlled either by the Ontario government or by the teachers' union. This is a very different thing from direct ownership by a municipal government.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

The City of Calgary is getting a redeveloped east village hub for their money. They've been trying to accomplish this objective for the last 20 years.

As for allocation of funds etc - well that's Canada for you. No one in my family uses the transit system anymore in any capacity. Why is my family funding Transit projects? Or the libraries? Or the YMCAs? I don't complain about any of those issues so then people need to stop complaining about public funds being used for the arena and east village redevelopment.

Everyone can have their sense of entitlement when it comes to how general taxpayer funds are used.

A redeveloped east village hub? Amazing!!!! As opposed to the current arena that you can almost literally throw a stone from to the new arena.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by jayswin

A redeveloped east village hub? Amazing!!!! As opposed to the current arena that you can almost literally throw a stone from to the new arena.

So you like the idea of an arena that's falling down as a hub for new development?

Opponents of the arena project keep talking as if it were a choice between the Saddledome and a new building. It's a choice between a new building and no arena at all a few years from now.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The fact that they currently don't sell out does not infer that they can't sell out. As soon as the team is competitive, and in the playoffs, it's a safe bet that the arena will be full again.

And a new building will help immensely, too.

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

That's exactly my point. A new building should technically, theoretically help.

An upgrade to the off ice product with the on ice being equal should bring more people to be interested in attending the games.

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I agree, a new building will help immensely.

I mean, 2018-19 the Flames were second overall in the NHL with 107 points but were still a fair bit short of capacity at 18,501 (compared to that 2006-2016 stretch).

But what is the benefit, duty or urgency of the city and citizens (90% of which don't attend games regularly) to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make sure the Flames can realize their profits on 18000 tickets sold in the new arena vs 17000 in the Saddledome?

Can anyone explain that like I'm five years old? because I'm not seeing how that's a tax payer problem vs an ownership group problem.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

So you like the idea of an arena that's falling down as a hub for new development?

Opponents of the arena project keep talking as if it were a choice between the Saddledome and a new building. It's a choice between a new building and no arena at all a few years from now.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=387

Care to answer to any of this stunning stuff? I was blown away by it, like floored and saddened.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by jayswin

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=387

Care to answer to any of this stunning stuff? I was blown away by it, like floored and saddened.

No, because (1) it's off topic, and (2) people who worship at the altar of Woke cannot be convinced by either facts or reasoning. But hey, if you want to attack me because I disagree with your religion, I'm sure that totally invalidates anything I have to say about hockey.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No, because (1) it's off topic, and (2) people who worship at the altar of Woke cannot be convinced by either facts or reasoning. But hey, if you want to attack me because I disagree with your religion, I'm sure that totally invalidates anything I have to say about hockey.

LOL!!!!!!!! "The people that worship at the alter of Woke" is the stupidest most uneducated Joe rogan, alt right BS imaginable. I really hope you're not that dim and maybe just got caught up in some bad algorithms on social media But I begrudgingly agree that it is off topic and for that I'm sorry.

[jayswin]

What a guy, lol.