Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

Next steps is to flood Gaza with humanitarian aid to end the suffering.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Count down to Trump taking credit...

By the sounds of it, he probably should, at least based on Israeli media accounts of what happened:

A “tense” weekend meeting between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and incoming Mideast envoy Steve Witkoff led to a breakthrough in the hostage negotiations, with the top aide to US President-elect Donald Trump doing more to sway the premier in a single sit-down than outgoing President Joe Biden did all year, two Arab officials told The Times of Israel on Tuesday.

Witkoff has been in Doha for the past week to take part in the hostage negotiations, as mediators try to secure a deal before Trump’s January 20 inauguration. On Saturday, Witkoff flew to Israel for a meeting with Netanyahu at the premier’s Jerusalem office.

During the meeting, Witkoff urged Netanyahu to accept key compromises necessary for an agreement, the two Arab officials on Monday told The Times of Israel on condition of anonymity. Neither Witkoff nor Netanyahu’s office responded to requests for comment.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-o...-did-all-year/

Last Friday evening, Steven Witkoff, U.S. President-elect Donald Trump's Middle East envoy, called from Qatar to tell Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's aides that he would be coming to Israel the following afternoon. The aides politely explained that was in the middle of the Sabbath but that the prime minister would gladly meet him Saturday night.

Witkoff's blunt reaction took them by surprise. He explained to them in salty English that Shabbat was of no interest to him. His message was loud and clear. Thus in an unusual departure from official practice, the prime minister showed up at his office for an official meeting with Witkoff, who then returned to Qatar to seal the deal.

A week before Trump's inauguration, Jerusalem already sees a change in the rules of the game that has broken the deadlock in the hostage negotiations. Unusually, the outgoing Biden administration has let Witkoff lead the process, on the grounds that any obligations the United States undertakes will be incumbent on Trump, not on Biden.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...4-fbfdce850000

Not that that's anything extraordinary; the US calls the shots and if they wanted a ceasefire they were going to get one. It's just that the Biden administration obviously didn't want a ceasefire, or at least they weren't willing to use their leverage to make one happen.

Obviously the ceasefire is only the first step and I imagine Trump will mess it up going forward. But if the above reports are correct, his incoming administration has already been far more effective at stopping the fighting than Biden's ever was.

[afc wimbledon]

In truth it's the fall of Assad and the neutering of Iran and Hezbollah that has done the most to convince Hamas to take the loss

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

In truth it's the fall of Assad and the neutering of Iran and Hezbollah that has done the most to convince Hamas to take the loss

That, and Qatar starting to take a harder stance on Hamas.

I think there is an indirect tie-in to a presidential change in the U.S. I think both sides in the conflict are a little uncertain how it will look and would rather try to settle it. The PA has also been cracking down on terrorists in their territory lately, which many assume is an attempt to show the incoming American president that they are worthy of taking over Gaza from Hamas.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

That, and Qatar starting to take a harder stance on Hamas.

I think there is an indirect tie-in to a presidential change in the U.S. I think both sides in the conflict are a little uncertain how it will look and would rather try to settle it. The PA has also been cracking down on terrorists in their territory lately, which many assume is an attempt to show the incoming American president that they are worthy of taking over Gaza from Hamas.

I don't think either Hamas or Bibi wanted peace but Hamas has had the legs cut out underneath them by Assad's fall so they have no choice, that in turn leaves Bibi the only blockage to giving Trump his win and he can't afford to be seen as that so it forces Israel to go along with it

[GGG]

Originally Posted by opendoor

By the sounds of it, he probably should, at least based on Israeli media accounts of what happened:



https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-o...-did-all-year/



https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...4-fbfdce850000

Not that that's anything extraordinary; the US calls the shots and if they wanted a ceasefire they were going to get one. It's just that the Biden administration obviously didn't want a ceasefire, or at least they weren't willing to use their leverage to make one happen.

Obviously the ceasefire is only the first step and I imagine Trump will mess it up going forward. But if the above reports are correct, his incoming administration has already been far more effective at stopping the fighting than Biden's ever was.

In general not facing an election again gives Trump leverage for the next 2-3 years before entering the lame duck phase. He no longer needs vote from the public which allows a lot of flexibility.

[PuckSlap]

I believe it was it was a mix of the Biden administration and the incoming Trump administration, that helped get it to this current step. Obviously not the end of the war, but some great steps and negotiations to stop the current conflict.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by GGG

In general not facing an election again gives Trump leverage for the next 2-3 years before entering the lame duck phase. He no longer needs vote from the public which allows a lot of flexibility.

I'm not even sure that matters much in this case. I think people vastly overestimate the political cost of a President pressuring Israel behind the scenes for a ceasefire and hostage swap. If anything, this just makes Democrats look worse, so even if there was an election coming up Trump would be well advised to do the same thing.

Long term, I'm sure it'll be a mess. I'd be shocked if Trump didn't promise Israel, either tacitly or explicitly, near unconditional support if they violate the ceasefire or expand West Bank settlements. But for now, it's hard to see this as anything but a huge knock against the Biden administration given the reports saying something to the effect that "this was the first time the US had put any pressure on Israel to accept a ceasefire".

[Azure]

Well the US State Department is saying the Trump team was critical in getting the deal done so I guess a lot of people on here are going to eat crow.

Now we'll just have to see how long the ceasefire actually lasts.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well the US State Department is saying the Trump team was critical in getting the deal done so I guess a lot of people on here are going to eat crow.

Now we'll just have to see how long the ceasefire actually lasts.

Yes, the most important thing about an Israel/Hamas ceasefire is who on an internet message board should eat crow.

This man cares about the issues.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well the US State Department is saying the Trump team was critical in getting the deal done so I guess a lot of people on here are going to eat crow.

Now we'll just have to see how long the ceasefire actually lasts.

I'll wait for the list of posters and posts showing exactly who was saying whatever you are suggesting was said. Sounds like it is a long one.

[Beninho]

Very happy to see a deal reached, hopefully the deal holds and both societies can move forward. Still a ways to go to get to stage 2 and stage 3 of the deal. I am optimistic. So many question marks remain on how things will unfold. Does Hamas stay in power? Does Bibi survive another election? Unfortunately I think both answers will be a yes but I would love to be proven otherwise.

Interesting comments from this US official. Obviously the weakening of Hezbollah and fall of Assad have major parts to play in all this. I find the last part of the article so wild, supposedly in negotiations over the last week in Qatar, negotiations were happening in one building with the Americans/Israelis on one floor and Hamas on the floor below with Qatari and Egyptian officials passing notes between them. I find that kind of hilarious and something straight out of a movie.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...s-toward-deal/

[Mathgod]

Well, if it's true that Trump and his people had a lot to do with this peace deal... you combine that with Biden continuing to shovel huge amounts of offensive weaponry to the IDF even after the electoral consequences of stopping those shipments had passed...

All I can say is, Biden and the people around him have lost a lot of credibility. The way he stayed on too long and only gave the Democratic Party 3 months to frantically cobble together a bid for the White House, will be what he's remembered for more than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, he did a lot of good things during his presidency. But ultimately it won't be the first thing most people think of when they remember him. And I have to admit, I thought his continued sending of destructive weapons to Israel was because of the electoral consequences of putting his foot down. But, evidently, it wasn't about that...

[Pointman]

This shows what was the real reason of the war.

Centuries-long mutual hate between two nations that share the same land? Deeply-rooted religious differences? Thousands of atrocities, injustice and crimes?

Nah... A whim of those in power. Iran and Biden admin felt like they want themselves a bit of a war. So there was a war. Trump was more like "Ummm, I don't quite like to have a war there, could you please stop it so I would have more fun in my inauguration event?". Kaboom! - the war is over.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

So Al Jazeera is too anti Hamas to be in Palestine, but too Pro Hamas to be in Israel?

There are three powers there, not two:

1. US and its proxy Israel
2. Iran and their proxies Hamas, Hezbollah and Khusities
3. Arabian states

Al Jazeera is from the third camp.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by activeStick

But joking aside, The Lancet is no good, depending on the situation being discussed. Just like how the ICJ was being cheered on by the west when they issued an arrest warrant for Putin after his invasion of Ukraine, but when the ICJ did the same for Netanyahu and other terrorists from the Israeli government, the west sanctioned members of the ICJ and completely disagreed with it. It's the rules-based order, baby!

To be fair, all people are like this, not just politicians. Look no further than CalgaryPuck.

Ukrainians are killing russians civilians, although Russia has a separate army, that wears uniform.

CP: "They have every right to do it, Russia is an aggressor, their whole population is responsible"

Israel is killing Gaza civilians, while Hamas hides among them and doesn't wear uniform.

CP: "Oh, what a genocide! What a horrible crimes by Israel! Civilians are innocent, how dare them!"

Me: " But isn't it a little bit inconsistent?"

CP: "Shut up you GHOUL!"

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

To be fair, all people are like this, not just politicians. Look no further than CalgaryPuck.

Ukrainians are killing russians civilians, although Russia has a separate army, that wears uniform.

CP: "They have every right to do it, Russia is an aggressor, their whole population is responsible"

Israel is killing Gaza civilians, while Hamas hides among them and doesn't wear uniform.

CP: "Oh, what a genocide! What a horrible crimes by Israel! Civilians are innocent, how dare them!"

Me: " But isn't it a little bit inconsistent?"

CP: "Shut up you GHOUL!"

People don’t think you’re a ghoul for being inconsistent, they think you’re a ghoul because you’re a pro-Putin, pro-Trump weirdo who has expressed hatred of and joy at the deaths of Palestinians repeatedly, among other generally insane things.

You know… ghoulish behaviour..

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People don’t think you’re a ghoul for being inconsistent, they think you’re a ghoul because you’re a pro-Putin, pro-Trump weirdo who has expressed hatred of and joy at the deaths of Palestinians repeatedly, among other generally insane things.

You know… ghoulish behaviour..

Please quote any posts where I expressed joy of death of Palestinians or anything pro-Trump. I've been consistently saying that war is horrible and deaths to both civilians and military are terrible things. I also live in the most mixed major city of Israel alongside many arabs. If I hated Arabs, I wouldn't live in Haifa.

The only thing you could describe as ghoulish is my opinion about Gazans civilians, however it is in no way more violent, than others opinion on Russian civilians, including Itse saying that I have blood on my hands and Fuzz saying that Ukrainians have every right to kill Russian civilians. I didn't call either of them ghouls for that.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well the US State Department is saying the Trump team was critical in getting the deal done so I guess a lot of people on here are going to eat crow.

Now we'll just have to see how long the ceasefire actually lasts.

Same thing is going to happen in the Ukraine is my guess .

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

To be fair, all people are like this, not just politicians. Look no further than CalgaryPuck.

Ukrainians are killing russians civilians, although Russia has a separate army, that wears uniform.

CP: "They have every right to do it, Russia is an aggressor, their whole population is responsible"

Israel is killing Gaza civilians, while Hamas hides among them and doesn't wear uniform.

CP: "Oh, what a genocide! What a horrible crimes by Israel! Civilians are innocent, how dare them!"

Me: " But isn't it a little bit inconsistent?"

CP: "Shut up you GHOUL!"

You are the only one who thinks the two situations are at all comparable, and you are only able to hold that position because you can't acknowledge anything the Palestinians have had to suffer. It makes it really easy to relate the two, if you can make Palestinians the same as Russians. You've tried to push this in the Ukraine thread, and rightly got chased away, because it's bull####. The only people making that argument are Israelis, and I only know that now because I decided to search for it. This letter from a reader explains why that is wrong fairly well.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-is-not-valid


And could you please stop disingenuously bringing up my comment from the Ukraine thread about Ukrainians having every right to kill Russian civilians, at that point, as if that justifies Israel's actions? Russia had been slaughtering children in schools, leveling hospitals, massacring civilians like utter monsters, and nothing Ukraine did was slowing them down. So ya, it felt like targeting Russian civilians may have been a step that could have had any effect on Russia's war, and wait, now it sounds like a similar situation somewhere else...hrmmmm. Sometimes it's your only choice, when you've been cornered by an aggressor with an immense power imbalance. But I know, you will never be able to see this, because you actually are a ghoul.