Lord of the Rings & Tolkien Appreciaton

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

The films do two things absolutely amazingly: cinematography and music. For that alone they are an absolute triumph.

In terms of telling the LOTR story, there are some choices to deviate from the source material that are perfectly understandable in light of the change of medium. There are also some choices to keep with the original source material that I didn't think translated well to the screen - e.g. the Dead Men of Dunharrow basically CGI-ing up the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Then there are some choices to deviate from the source material for no apparent reason, or more often because presumably some producer or suit said "no, do it this way, audiences will think this is cool and awesome", like shoehorning as much Liv Tyler in as possible (with some absolutely painfully cheesy results) or all the changes to Helm's Deep. Those are the things that are "nails on a chalkboard" to even the most patient and understanding book nerd, but that some of us will put up with in light of what's good about those movies.

EDIT: Hah, just looked above and I apparently said much the same thing 9 years ago. Good necro bump.

[afc wimbledon]

To be clear I'm not saying LoTR is a terrible set of movies, I'm saying I didn't like them, it's almost always hard to like an film adaption of a book that you are really familiar with, ironically the book is, in my opinion, way to rambling and I've never understood the reverence it gets, it's a nice bit of fantasy that's all

[CroFlames]

You got some strong opinions for a guy who doesn't like the films and thinks the books are rambling lol.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

You got some strong opinions for a guy who doesn't like the films and thinks the books are rambling lol.

sod all point being here otherwise!!!

[troutman]

“Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: Small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.” - Elrond

“Even the smallest person can change the course of the future.” — Galadriel

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Books are a lot of rambling, but damn those movies for having the nerve to condense and package the most essential themes from said rambling to create a thrilling, theater-friendly 9 hour experience.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by troutman

“Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: Small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.” - Elrond

“Even the smallest person can change the course of the future.” — Galadriel

"The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command.

‘And anyway all these notions are only a trick,” he said to himself. ‘He’d spot me and cow me before I could so much as shout out. He’d spot me, pretty quick, if I put the Ring on now, in Mordor. Well, all I can say is: things look as hopeless as a frost in Spring. Just when being invisible would be really useful, I can’t use the Ring! And if ever I get any further, it’s going to be nothing but a drag and a burden every step. So what’s to be done?” - Samwise Gamgee

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Jackson

EOWYN: I will kill you if you touch him!
WITCH KING: Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey.
WITCH KING: You fool! No man can kill me! Die now!
EOWYN: I am no man! AAAAAAAA!

Originally Posted by Tolkein

Then out of the blackness in his mind he thought that he heard Dernhelm speaking; yet now the voice seemed strange, recalling some other voice that he had known.

'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!'

A cold voice answered: 'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.

The book is frequently written like it's retelling an epic poem translated from old English. That's Tolkein's wheelhouse given his expertise and background, and why it reads differently from a fantasy novel written by someone whose wheelhouse is pulp fiction.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The book is frequently written like it's retelling an epic poem translated from old English. That's Tolkein's wheelhouse given his expertise and background, and why it reads differently from a fantasy novel written by someone whose wheelhouse is pulp fiction.

It was also never writen as a book, Tolkien wasn't an author, he was an academic and teacher who scribbled down ideas, wrote partial narratives wholly unrelated and then collated it into a story, it's why the book has these odd 'sections', the party, the shire, Tom Bombadil and the old forest, then the story proper, the Quest, and then in the end the rising of the shire, they all kind of work together but they clearly weren't written in a linier narrative as part of an overall plan

[bdubbs]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Dang, really? I thought the protagonist was well done because they didn't make her infallible, but also didn't make her a blundering idiot.

Really?

Spoiler!

The part where she was captured after the lake monster, where she didn't remove the unsecured sack over her head after they, *checks notes* didn't secure her hands either? And when she woke up in the room, she went out onto the balcony and... could have escaped but chose instead to just wait until the big bad came to say hello before... escaping the same way she should have earlier anyway? Maybe they wanted to show that escaping would have been difficult, but then the camp had to be told by the leader, during her escape, that they were escaping?

There are other examples but this was one part I was quite annoyed by.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It was also never writen as a book, Tolkien wasn't an author, he was an academic and teacher who scribbled down ideas, wrote partial narratives wholly unrelated and then collated it into a story, it's why the book has these odd 'sections', the party, the shire, Tom Bombadil and the old forest, then the story proper, the Quest, and then in the end the rising of the shire, they all kind of work together but they clearly weren't written in a linier narrative as part of an overall plan

His other works, may be.

But in the preface to LOTR, he explicitly states he's trying to write one long cohesive story.

The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.

Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing that they evidently prefer.

The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

His other works, may be.

But in the preface to LOTR, he explicitly states he's trying to write one long cohesive story.

That may be so but his writing process was not cohesive, possibly as he wasn't an author really, he spent 12 years putting the book together, taking long breaks and revising and changing the story as he went, it was only the Return of the King that he wrote as a whole, the first two books were patched together from disparate ideas

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I really couldn't stand any of the movies, thought they all butchered the meaning of the books, I didn't mind that they had to edit out sections to give it a reasonable run time, it was that it seemed Jackson didnt really get the point of the books at all

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

To be clear I'm not saying LoTR is a terrible set of movies, I'm saying I didn't like them, it's almost always hard to like an film adaption of a book that you are really familiar with, ironically the book is, in my opinion, way to rambling and I've never understood the reverence it gets, it's a nice bit of fantasy that's all

So the movies were butchered because they didn't capture all the rambling of the books? If the books are nothing more than a nice bit of fantasy then what's this meaning that the films butchered? Your criticism of the films doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Brendone]

I enjoyed the movies enough to attempt to reread the books. Oops. What a pile of crap. I thought I liked them as a child, but it sure doesn’t read well as an adult. Had the movies been a more direct translation of the books, they likely wouldn’t have made more than one, and that one may have been “Cats” bad.

[Erick Estrada]

The timing of this thread is coincidental for me as my younger son has never seen the movies but really liked the show so he and I have been watching the UHD extended versions over the past couple of weeks and these movies are still some of the best cinema ever from the music, cinematography, actors, action, etc ever put to film. When you consider the scope of the three movies it's extremely impressive they were able to attain such a high level of quality from beginning to end.

[Wormius]

I think the last two of the LOTR movies dragged on a bit with the battle scenes and the Ents. I don’t mind the length, but the CGI armies weren’t my thing. Looks video game-ish and just filler for the sake of showing off the delightful New Zealand scenery.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I think the last two of the LOTR movies dragged on a bit with the battle scenes and the Ents. I don’t mind the length, but the CGI armies weren’t my thing. Looks video game-ish and just filler for the sake of showing off the delightful New Zealand scenery.

That's party of story telling through.

Take your viewers to worlds/lands that they won't see/can't see. This is part of filmmaking that has vanished from most projects at this point.

There's value in the craft of taking your viewers to landscapes they've never seen.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So the movies were butchered because they didn't capture all the rambling of the books? If the books are nothing more than a nice bit of fantasy then what's this meaning that the films butchered? Your criticism of the films doesn't make a lot of sense.

I didn't criticize the films I just said I didn't like them, the issue of my view of the point of the books is separate from their somewhat disjointed nature, I had no problem with the movies cutting large chunks of the books out, I even had no issue with them completely inventing bits like the charge at Helms Deep or getting rid of Glorfindel completely in order to give Liv Tyler something to do (well I did have a bit of an issue with that)

The movies cut away the part of the book I personally liked in order to make the hobbits comic relief, that doesn't make them bad films just screws them for me

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That's party of story telling through.

Take your viewers to worlds/lands that they won't see/can't see. This is part of filmmaking that has vanished from most projects at this point.

There's value in the craft of taking your viewers to landscapes they've never seen.

That’s fair, but I think I got my fill of New Zealand scenery from Fellowship. It can become excessive. More story, less aerial shot of the NZ alps.

[CroFlames]

Anyway, I bumped the thread to talk about the new movie. By the looks of it, most people haven't seen it and don't plan to.

In an era of mass volumes of Star Wars slop being produced, it was nice to have a standalone concise movie in a beloved franchise.