Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

The most substantial hurdle we have to climb for diversifying our economy is not desire to do so, it's an infrastructure barrier. We have overbuilt export capacity to our southern border, and virtually no large scale export facilities for our energy products. Because of the Canadian court system and some policy decisions, we are basically prevented from building new export facilities in economically reasonable time frames.

Private capital will not allocate itself because of uncertainty. This is why the government had to buy the trans mountain pipeline to get it done. Likely we are stuck in this morass until the court situation is fixed, somehow. Frankly I dont know if it can under the current legal structure of the country.

Northern Gateway, Energy East and a few more LNG terminals would have been great right now!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

He’s not Trudeau is the best part!!

The new Liberal leader will also not be Trudeau.

So what's your next point?

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Northern Gateway, Energy East and a few more LNG terminals would have been great right now!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Northern Gateway, Energy East and a few more LNG terminals would have been great right now!

Jeebus, Northern Gateway and Energy East not being completed had nothing to do with the feds (who approved both). Northern Gateway was opposed by BC and Aboriginal groups. Enbridge did a quiet shutdown of the project over a couple years.

And Energy East was shut down by TC Energy because the numbers didn't work.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Lol!

Greenpeace guys wearing orange jumpsuits

Now a member of Government.

Good times.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Jeebus, Northern Gateway and Energy East not being completed had nothing to do with the feds (who approved both). Northern Gateway was opposed by BC and Aboriginal groups. Enbridge did a quiet shutdown of the project over a couple years.

And Energy East was shut down by TC Energy because the numbers didn't work.

BC and Aboriginal groups afforded substantially over the top rights by court decisions.

The numbers didn't work on Energy East because of uncertain regulatory approval timelines.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

This is a fun argument because it typically brings out the same people who argue that 'Albertans don't pay transfer payments' on the basis that they don't actually pull our their check books and pay other provinces directly.

Explicitly in a transactional sense the US importers will pay the tariff for the goods they import from Canada and any price impact they will pass on to their customers who ultimately are US consumers.

That said the dynamic pricing for Canadian goods will be impacted by the tariffs in the sense that producers might have to discount their product prices to maintain sales or in the case of commodities the marginal price could be downwardly impacted by the tariff so that in a sense the Canadian producer absorbs a portion of the margin impact due to the tariff, therefore spreading the economic impact of the tariff beyond the importer who explicitly pays the tariff.

I still think these tariffs are catastrophic for Canada and don't get me wrong. At the same time, Trump's actions (ostensibly) aren't great for the US either. The last time he put in tariffs, he faced a lot of opposition at home because of those impacts, and companies have already started loading up on some things to try to prepare.

I don't see this as a smooth ride on either side of the border, unfortunately

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by chemgear

The liberals are hiding from Parliament. Everybody knows they can't do anything at least until April, no bills, no retaliation tariffs in return, lame duck government. Nevermind they aren't going to care about anything other than their own leadership campaigns.

That's not how the government works. They don't need parliamentary approval for every little decision they make. So they can absolutely enact tariffs, beef up border security, etc. without passing new bills.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

No, we cannot apply new tariffs without legislative action.

This article suggests that we can apply Tarrifs without the legislature and did so in 2018

https://globalnews.ca/news/10945268/...ffs-trump/amp/

If Trump follows through with his threat of tariffs, Canada can impose retaliatory duties on American goods without parliamentary approval as well.

The government did not need to pass legislation to retaliate against Trump’s steel and aluminum tariffs in 2018.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That's not how the government works. They don't need parliamentary approval for every little decision they make. So they can absolutely enact tariffs, beef up border security, etc. without passing new bills.

So what do we need them for at all?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GGG

This article suggests that we can apply Tarrifs without the legislature and did so in 2018

https://globalnews.ca/news/10945268/...ffs-trump/amp/

I see this. I could be wrong, but I am interested if this current scenario applies. CUSMA is currently in force, and may prevent us from applying new tariffs without a bill. But, I misunderstood, the governor in council does have ability to apply tariffs without a bill, I am just not sure if the existing CUSMA, which is included in the customs tariffs act: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.../FullText.html prevents us from applying new tariffs without modifying the act.

Without legislature, we would not be able to modify the act.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Jeebus, Northern Gateway and Energy East not being completed had nothing to do with the feds (who approved both). Northern Gateway was opposed by BC and Aboriginal groups. Enbridge did a quiet shutdown of the project over a couple years.

And Energy East was shut down by TC Energy because the numbers didn't work.

The numbers don’t work because of the hurdles they put in place.

It was a conscious effort by the current regime to neuter the energy industry by taking away the expansion of market access and infrastructure as well as scaring away foreign investment via project uncertainty. All of which they were successful in achieving. Not to the benefit of Canada. This will be reversed under the next government.

When you have ideologues running federal portfolios you have a 50% chance that they will sabotage their area of responsibility. What did everyone think would happen when an ex member of greenpeace was put in charge of decision making over energy projects. What a horrible decision that was.

I wonder how many billions of dollars our environment minister cost Canada in GDP over the last decade? Wonder if he could pay us back for it.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Locke

So what do we need them for at all?

I believe it was Switzerland that had a period where they ran their country with the bureaucracy in place minus the politicians. Everything was decided via plebiscites.

I think it was the most efficient that their country ever ran.

Edit. They are still doing it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I believe it was Switzerland that had a period where they ran their country with the bureaucracy in place minus the politicians. Everything was decided via plebiscites.

I think it was the most efficient that their country ever ran.

Intriguing. For the Swiss that says a lot.

[DFO]

Originally Posted by Goriders

The numbers don’t work because of the hurdles they put in place.

It was a conscious effort by the current regime to neuter the energy industry by taking away the expansion of market access and scaring away foreign investment via project uncertainty. All of which they were successful in achieving. Not to the benefit of Canada. This will be reversed under the next government.

When you have ideologues running federal portfolios you have a 50% chance that they will sabotage their area of responsibility. What did everyone think would happen when an ex member of greenpeace was put in charge of decision making over energy projects. What a horrible decision that was.

I wonder how many billions of dollars our environment minister cost Canada in GDP over the last decade? Wonder if he could pay us back for it.

The time to pursue export opportunities would have been during the CPC Harper years. It should have been evident to the CPC but they were too busy being as antagonistic as possible towards First Nations - you know the folks that would need to be partners. Instead of working constructively they essentially poisoned the well going forward. I’m in no way looking to absolve a terrible Trudeau led government but these energy issues weren’t all their doing.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by DFO

The time to pursue export opportunities would have been during the CPC Harper years. It should have been evident to the CPC but they were too busy being as antagonistic as possible towards First Nations - you know the folks that would need to be partners. Instead of working constructively they essentially poisoned the well going forward. I’m in no way looking to absolve a terrible Trudeau led government but these energy issues weren’t all their doing.

Of course. But to say Guilbeault didn’t openly sabotage the energy industry as some are suggesting is very naive.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Goriders

The numbers don’t work because of the hurdles they put in place.

It was a conscious effort by the current regime to neuter the energy industry by taking away the expansion of market access and infrastructure as well as scaring away foreign investment via project uncertainty. All of which they were successful in achieving. Not to the benefit of Canada. This will be reversed under the next government.

When you have ideologues running federal portfolios you have a 50% chance that they will sabotage their area of responsibility. What did everyone think would happen when an ex member of greenpeace was put in charge of decision making over energy projects. What a horrible decision that was.

I wonder how many billions of dollars our environment minister cost Canada in GDP over the last decade? Wonder if he could pay us back for it.

Let's just rehash the same old arguments, this'll be fun. If it wasn't those hurdles that killed Northern Gateway and Energy East then the courts would have done it. The 'hurdles' were put in place to prevent it being later killed in an inevitable court challenge. And the economics of Energy East were always flimsy at best.

Trudeau is certainly not perfect, but if the Liberals were undertaking a a 'conscious effort to neuter the energy industry by taking away the expansion of market access and infrastructure' why the #### did they buy and build TMX at great cost? (Both in terms of dollars and political capital because that definitely didn't play well in the East)
Surely they would have just let it die on the vine if that was their plan and it would have been beneficial politically for them to do so.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Goriders

The numbers don’t work because of the hurdles they put in place.

It was a conscious effort by the current regime to neuter the energy industry by taking away the expansion of market access and scaring away foreign investment via project uncertainty. All of which they were successful in achieving. Not to the benefit of Canada. This will be reversed under the next government.

When you have ideologues running federal portfolios you have a 50% chance that they will sabotage their area of responsibility. What did everyone think would happen when an ex member of greenpeace was put in charge of decision making over energy projects. What a horrible decision that was.

I wonder how many billions of dollars our environment minister cost Canada in GDP over the last decade? Wonder if he could pay us back for it.

You get ex-oil execs put un charge of the dept of the environment all the time by conservative governments and I bet you never complain. Alberta's Environment minister is married to an oil and gas lobbyist. The previous environment minister worked for Enbridge and CEPA.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Of course. But to say Guilbeault didn’t openly sabotage the energy industry as some are suggesting is very naive.

Be specific - what did he do?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Goriders

The numbers don’t work because of the hurdles they put in place.

It was a conscious effort by the current regime to neuter the energy industry by taking away the expansion of market access and infrastructure as well as scaring away foreign investment via project uncertainty. All of which they were successful in achieving. Not to the benefit of Canada. This will be reversed under the next government.

When you have ideologues running federal portfolios you have a 50% chance that they will sabotage their area of responsibility. What did everyone think would happen when an ex member of greenpeace was put in charge of decision making over energy projects. What a horrible decision that was.

I wonder how many billions of dollars our environment minister cost Canada in GDP over the last decade? Wonder if he could pay us back for it.

The actual costs of these projects were definitely debilitating to several of the proposals.

Kinder Morgan's original estimate was $7 billion for TMX. At the end of the day it cost 30 billion - paid for by the Canadian government.