Russia invades Ukraine

[Itse]

Russia's attacks on the undewater cables connecting Finland to mainland Europe have intensified this winter.

In November, two internet cables from Finland were sabotaged (one to Estonia and one to Germany) by an unkown culprit (at least publicly unknown) and a few days ago another electricity cable was damaged by a Russian "shadow fleet" tanker, once again with an anchor. That ship, called Eagle S, has now been seized by Finnish authorities and taken to a Finnish port while the crew and ship are being inspected. Unusual Russian made communication decices have already been discovered on the ship.

https://www.lloydslist.com/LL1151950...-investigation

This is really just the most talked about part of the campaign of industrial sabotage Russia has beem waging against Europe. This ship is registered the UAE, with a multinational crew mostly from Georgia and India.

NATO has already decided to increase patrols at the Baltic Sea.


We'll see what longterm ramifications this has on international shipping in the Baltic Sea.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Itse

Russia's attacks on the undewater cables connecting Finland to mainland Europe have intensified this winter.

In November, two internet cables from Finland were sabotaged (one to Estonia and one to Germany) by an unkown culprit (at least publicly unknown) and a few days ago another electricity cable was damaged by a Russian "shadow fleet" tanker, once again with an anchor. That ship, called Eagle S, has now been seized by Finnish authorities and taken to a Finnish port while the crew and ship are being inspected. Unusual Russian made communication decices have already been discovered on the ship.

https://www.lloydslist.com/LL1151950...-investigation

This is really just the most talked about part of the campaign of industrial sabotage Russia has beem waging against Europe. This ship is registered the UAE, with a multinational crew mostly from Georgia and India.

NATO has already decided to increase patrols at the Baltic Sea.


We'll see what longterm ramifications this has on international shipping in the Baltic Sea.

Funny thing though:

The only somewhat noticeable effect of these cable sabotaged is that price of electricity is super duper low in Finland right now (literally free during the night even), in part because only a third of the normal capacity to export it is available, and we have had favourable weather. (Lots of wind, not very cold.) (It's not just that of course, price of electricity is very complicated).

...and that's kind of telling on how stupid and pointless these particular sabotages are. Finland and Estonia are in no way either financially or logistically dependent on selling electricity to each other. The transport cables are there for convenience, not necessity.

Russia on the other hand desperately needs the income from their oil exporting shadow fleet, and they've already lost several of those ships to bad weather recently due to them being mostly very old and in poor condition.

In other words, it's quite possible that the loss of income from losing yet another oil transport ship to seizure is actually more of a loss to Russia than these petty, pointless sabotages are to Finland. Especially when you factor in the likely incoming further restrictions and sanctions on these ships.

It seems like Russia thinks Finland is like them, not understanding the practical differences between a rich(ish), well-functioning modern economy and a decrepit petrol-state like themselves, and so they're shooting themselves in the foot thinking it will hurt us more.

[Pointman]

I wonder if Ukrainians took that messing with Russian civilian airports too far. They have been doing it for months and were bragging about forcing Russian civilian airports to shut down airspace because of drone attacks.

Now obviously the west will try to pin the crash on Putin and Putin will try to pin it on Ukraine. The plane was shot down by Russian anti air defense obviously, however when an anti air missile hits the plane, it blasts immediately and everyone dies. This one was able to fly across the largest lake on earth and crash landed with half of the passengers survived. Likely the plane wasn't targeted but rather was hit by collateral shrapnel that was aimed at something else.

Now a legit point could be made that Russia should have shut down the airspace if it can't ensure its safety, but the same point could be made about Ukraine and the infamous Boeing catastrophe.

Several airlines, including Israel's, have already cancelled any flights to Russia. Makes me wonder if Ukraine will stop attacking civilian airports or double down on it in order to increase isolation of Russia.

[Hockeyguy15]

That is one way to spin it I guess.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I wonder if Ukrainians took that messing with Russian civilian airports too far. They have been doing it for months and were bragging about forcing Russian civilian airports to shut down airspace because of drone attacks.

Now obviously the west will try to pin the crash on Putin and Putin will try to pin it on Ukraine. The plane was shot down by Russian anti air defense obviously, however when an anti air missile hits the plane, it blasts immediately and everyone dies. This one was able to fly across the largest lake on earth and crash landed with half of the passengers survived. Likely the plane wasn't targeted but rather was hit by collateral shrapnel that was aimed at something else.

Now a legit point could be made that Russia should have shut down the airspace if it can't ensure its safety, but the same point could be made about Ukraine and the infamous Boeing catastrophe.

Several airlines, including Israel's, have already cancelled any flights to Russia. Makes me wonder if Ukraine will stop attacking civilian airports or double down on it in order to increase isolation of Russia.

Holly ####ing mother####er. What is defective in your head? I know you can't recognize right from wrong, but the gall of blaming Ukraine for this takes some goddamned chutzpah. ####ing unreal man.


Maybe blame Russia for invading Ukraine and for shooting down multiple civilian aircraft? I dunno? Or was it Hamas, you ####ing demon.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Holly ####ing mother####er. What is defective in your head? I know you can't recognize right from wrong, but the gall of blaming Ukraine for this takes some goddamned chutzpah. ####ing unreal man.


Maybe blame Russia for invading Ukraine and for shooting down multiple civilian aircraft? I dunno? Or was it Hamas, you ####ing demon.

I absolutely do blame Russia for attacking Ukraine. There's no doubt about it, but it never hurts to repeat again.

That being said, you are a bit inconsistent here. If your stance is that aggressor is to blame for everything, including possible transgressions by the defending party - that's fine. That means that Russia is responsible for everything in this war and Hamas is responsible for everything in Israel - Hamas war. That's perfectly fine line of thinking.

The other way is to consider incidents separately and blame whatever party is responsible for a particular incident, regardless of who had started the war. It is also a legit way to look into it, although I personally lean more into the former rather than the latter.

The key here is to be consistent across all conflicts though.

[Sliver]

Good lord, Pointman. What a fkn ghoul you are.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Good lord, Pointman. What a fkn ghoul you are.

Not really. It's actually interesting to compare opinions on similar events by the same posters on two different conflicts. Very inconsistent depending on the side they take.

And, for the record, I am in the school of thought that aggressor is to be blamed for everything.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Not really. It's actually interesting to compare opinions on similar events by the same posters on two different conflicts. Very inconsistent depending on the side they take.

And, for the record, I am in the school of thought that aggressor is to be blamed for everything.

Yes, I'm clear on your view...it's what makes you a ghoul.

I understand that you believe a terrorist attack on Israel one day has - in your mind - given Israel free reign to murder an unlimited amount of people and flatten the infrastructure of an entire society. I know you have no sense of proportional response and don't view humans as having equal value; some are lesser-thans to you and you do not care if they die.

Ghoul.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

That is one way to spin it I guess.

Spin? Ukrainian drones attacks on Russian civilian airports are well documented. Whether it's fair game or not is beyond the point, although in my world it is fair. Who is to blame largely depends on your overall philosophy on wars. I for one repeatedly resent the idea that the war should be conducted according to some rules and that civilians should be protected. I stand by that and hence blame the crash on Russia. However, if you believe that the war should be conducted by Geneva convention and civilians, especially those of third countries, should be protected, this one would go on Ukraine.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yes, I'm clear on your view...it's what makes you a ghoul.

I understand that you believe a terrorist attack on Israel one day has - in your mind - given Israel free reign to murder an unlimited amount of people and flatten the infrastructure of an entire society. I know you have no sense of proportional response and don't view humans as having equal value; some are lesser-thans to you and you do not care if they die.

Ghoul.

That's correct except for the last part. There's no such thing as "proportional response". Wars are fought until surrender, not until some victim threshold is met. Also, wars are fought nation-on-nation, rather than army-on-army, hence civilians are also participants.

I do view humans as having equal value. I grew up as minority myself.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

That's correct. There's no such thing as "proportional response". Wars are fought until surrender, not until some victim threshold is met. Also, wars are fought nation-on-nation, rather than army-on-army, hence civilians are also participants.

I do view humans as having equal value. I grew up as minority myself.

Wars are fought nation on nation? So Gaza is a nation?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Not really. It's actually interesting to compare opinions on similar events by the same posters on two different conflicts. Very inconsistent depending on the side they take.

And, for the record, I am in the school of thought that aggressor is to be blamed for everything.

I'm perfectly consistent. Israel is also the aggressor, there is plenty of blame in the Gaza situation. You are just unable to recognize that Israel is also the aggressor, because you are a monster. It's that simple.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Wars are fought nation on nation? So Gaza is a nation?

Yes, Gaza is a de facto nation, as they exiled Palestinian authorities and self govern themselves. They are a rebel breakaway enclave.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm perfectly consistent. Israel is also the aggressor, there is plenty of blame in the Gaza situation. You are just unable to recognize that Israel is also the aggressor, because you are a monster. It's that simple.

It's like saying that Ukraine is also the aggressor. They are not. Israel left Gaza alone 20 years ago and let Palestinian authorities govern them. Gazans promptly elected Hamas and murdered and exiled Palestinian authorities. Which resulted in the blockade, imposed by Israel and Egypt that was actually supported by Palestine.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I wonder if Ukrainians took that messing with Russian civilian airports too far. They have been doing it for months and were bragging about forcing Russian civilian airports to shut down airspace because of drone attacks.

Now obviously the west will try to pin the crash on Putin and Putin will try to pin it on Ukraine. The plane was shot down by Russian anti air defense obviously, however when an anti air missile hits the plane, it blasts immediately and everyone dies. This one was able to fly across the largest lake on earth and crash landed with half of the passengers survived. Likely the plane wasn't targeted but rather was hit by collateral shrapnel that was aimed at something else.

Now a legit point could be made that Russia should have shut down the airspace if it can't ensure its safety, but the same point could be made about Ukraine and the infamous Boeing catastrophe.

Several airlines, including Israel's, have already cancelled any flights to Russia. Makes me wonder if Ukraine will stop attacking civilian airports or double down on it in order to increase isolation of Russia.

This is straight up Orc propaganda and you know it. Strange isn't it, that it's always the russians online saying "I wonder this about Ukraine, I wonder that about Ukraine, " There is no 50/50 split of fault. There is no possible sliver of hope that somehow Ukraine could have prevented this incident by doing something different.

The fact the russian air traffic made them fly across the f'ing water in a pitiful attempt to down the plane so evidence could be lost speaks volumes as to the disgusting ghoulish mentality that exists there.

Ukraine should have done this, Ukraine should have done that. #### that. Russia should pack up, go home, then they don't have to worry about drones and other stuff hitting their big-ass land and "Urkaine increasing insolation of russia"(whatever the F that means).

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

This is straight up Orc propaganda and you know it. Strange isn't it, that it's always the russians online saying "I wonder this about Ukraine, I wonder that about Ukraine, " There is no 50/50 split of fault. There is no possible sliver of hope that somehow Ukraine could have prevented this incident by doing something different.

The fact the russian air traffic made them fly across the f'ing water in a pitiful attempt to down the plane so evidence could be lost speaks volumes as to the disgusting ghoulish mentality that exists there.

Ukraine should have done this, Ukraine should have done that. #### that. Russia should pack up, go home, then they don't have to worry about drones and other stuff hitting their big-ass land and "Urkaine increasing insolation of russia"(whatever the F that means).

No, it's not propaganda. This post comes from a different background and is largely rooted in Hamas war thread. It's a reflection on different approaches upon judging war incidents and different opinions about conducting the wars.

The point, correctly picked up by other participants of that thread, was that applying Geneva convention and overall "play-by-rules-dont-touch-civilians" framework could lead to some ugly - and, yes, wrong - conclusions if applied consistently across all conflicts.

Hence this framework is fundamentally flawed.

[calculoso]

Please keep Gaza/Israel to the appropriate thread

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Yes, Gaza is a de facto nation, as they exiled Palestinian authorities and self govern themselves. They are a rebel breakaway enclave.

Originally Posted by Pointman

It's like saying that Ukraine is also the aggressor. They are not. Israel left Gaza alone 20 years ago and let Palestinian authorities govern them. Gazans promptly elected Hamas and murdered and exiled Palestinian authorities. Which resulted in the blockade, imposed by Israel and Egypt that was actually supported by Palestine.

Okay, so - in your mind - Gaza is a "de facto" nation. So not a real nation, but close enough if we're going to say war is nation to nation and the humans I hate need to be killed and also must be a nation according to the definition I made up. Fair enough, I guess.

Also - again, according to the definition I made up - the aggressor [de facto] nation is responsible for everything bad that happens after the original aggression regardless of proportionality. Let's ignore the abject stupidity of such a statement since a nuclear holocaust would be permissible for the minorist of infractions nation to nation under this bone headed and ridiculous definition.

So when I looked at the Israel and Gaza situation, I think Israel is actually the aggressor:

Originally Posted by Sliver

Do you know if Israel was violent at all toward Palestinians prior to October 7? Like, do you know if Israel killed more Palestinians in every single year than the other way around?

Oh hai, I found some info on that (citation):
2008 - 2024 - 6,847 Palestinian fatalities at the hands of Israel (data on casualties in the Gaza Strip are not added post October 7, 2023 until these incidents have been independently verified).

2008 - 2024 - 321 Israeli fatalities at the hands of Palestinians.

That Israel is pretty scrappy for a peaceful nation, guy.

Maybe the injuries will tell a different story...oh wait, nope! Turns out the peace-loving IDF likes inflicting injuries on Palestinians, too:

2008 - 2024 - 158,123 Palestinian injuries at the hands of Israel (data on injuries in the Gaza Strip are not added post October 7, 2023 until these incidents have been independently verified).

2008 - 2024 - 6,449 Israeli injuries at the hands of Palestinians.

I assume this will change nothing about how you view the situation lol.

Now, obviously I get you have an impenetrable forcefield of indoctrination and misinformation preventing you from objectively analysing facts; however, at the very least maybe we can agree there is enough uncertainty over who started the Israel/Gaza conflict that allowing absolute destruction and human eradication of Gaza should perhaps be tempered with some empathy and humanity? lol, just kidding. Let's kill em all!!!1!1!!

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

The fact the russian air traffic made them fly across the f'ing water in a pitiful attempt to down the plane so evidence could be lost speaks volumes as to the disgusting ghoulish mentality that exists there.

Everything else aside, is there any source for that? It would be way better for Russia to make the plane land in Russia. Making it fly to another country would be worse. The plane was not in immediate danger on falling into the sea and sinking the evidence. It never actually fell, but rather failed to land properly because its rudder was shot and barely functioned.