Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

How about the best of both, an elevated tunnel?

It has been suggested elsewhere that the $75,000,000 public art portion could fund enough blue rings to make an elevated tunnel.

[jwslam]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

It has been suggested elsewhere that the $75,000,000 public art portion could fund enough blue rings to make an elevated tunnel.

Let's pay millions for NON-LOCAL artists to build something structural. What could go wrong?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by jwslam

Let's pay millions for NON-LOCAL artists to build something structural. What could go wrong?

Spanish welders perhaps?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Much of the beltline tunnel also has to be bored due to very poor geology, plus the need to go under the existing Red Line tunnel and the reserved space for the 8th Avenue subway.

Low-resolution geology overview from a 2014 report:

Spoiler!

Some parts of it were going to be about 30 m below surface.

https://www.calgary.ca/green-line/co...-stations.html

The deep underground station(s) would also be extremely expensive; just deferring the Centre Street Station saved about $400M.

Any idea how much of the 8th avenue tunnel is actually built right now?

Would completing the 8th Avenue tunnel, sinking the red line allow the Green Line to occupy 7th Avenue and move up Centre Street? I know getting the Green Line to 7th might be a challenge, but that seems easier than what is presented now?

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

Any idea how much of the 8th avenue tunnel is actually built right now?

Would completing the 8th Avenue tunnel, sinking the red line allow the Green Line to occupy 7th Avenue and move up Centre Street? I know getting the Green Line to 7th might be a challenge, but that seems easier than what is presented now?

I believe that the only piece would be the tunnel below City Hall. I have heard various urban legends about other bits, like the Bankers Hall Auditorium being a future station, but no actual evidence.

I'd love to hear if there is more unused infrastructure under Stephen Avenue, and maybe one of the transit/urbanist nerds with more knowledge than myself would know more.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

Any idea how much of the 8th avenue tunnel is actually built right now?

Would completing the 8th Avenue tunnel, sinking the red line allow the Green Line to occupy 7th Avenue and move up Centre Street? I know getting the Green Line to 7th might be a challenge, but that seems easier than what is presented now?

About 5%. Instead of building parking levels under the municipal building, they basically built it as a tunnel. (ie. 1 block/~150 meters down, ~2300 meters to go)

You hit on what I think is the biggest missed opportunity here, but it's essentially impossible because we've contracted for low floor trains and designed the SE line for low platforms. I thought there might be some creative solutions where you could even interline the green line with the existing underpass under CP tracks, but apparently the trains have different voltage and it's just not possible.

But the smart move wold have been to stick with high floor trains for the SE, and just do whatever makes sense for the north in isolation (low floor running at grade, or go for a fully dedicated ROW (elevated or underground where necessary) that facilitates automated trains).

[Fuzz]

Sounds great, since we have the low floor on order let's get shovels in the ground for a north line to 7th, and worry about the south stuff later.

[ken0042]

Could we not cancel the order on the low floor trains? And/or sell them to some other city? It seems to me that not wanting to take a hit in the 10s of millions (just a guess) for the train cars, we are now only giving ourselves options that are going to cost 100s of millions or a billion more?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Could we not cancel the order on the low floor trains? And/or sell them to some other city? It seems to me that not wanting to take a hit in the 10s of millions (just a guess) for the train cars, we are now only giving ourselves options that are going to cost 100s of millions or a billion more?

The train cars are like 500 million or so. Not sure what cancelation terms would look like.

Edit: this article says 338 million
https://www.railway-technology.com/n...-vehicles-caf/

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Could we not cancel the order on the low floor trains? And/or sell them to some other city? It seems to me that not wanting to take a hit in the 10s of millions (just a guess) for the train cars, we are now only giving ourselves options that are going to cost 100s of millions or a billion more?

FYI -- if you switch to high floor vehicles, you change the design requirements of each SE station- which will result in millions of extra construction costs.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

About 5%. Instead of building parking levels under the municipal building, they basically built it as a tunnel. (ie. 1 block/~150 meters down, ~2300 meters to go)

You hit on what I think is the biggest missed opportunity here, but it's essentially impossible because we've contracted for low floor trains and designed the SE line for low platforms. I thought there might be some creative solutions where you could even interline the green line with the existing underpass under CP tracks, but apparently the trains have different voltage and it's just not possible.

But the smart move wold have been to stick with high floor trains for the SE, and just do whatever makes sense for the north in isolation (low floor running at grade, or go for a fully dedicated ROW (elevated or underground where necessary) that facilitates automated trains).

I find it fun to think about possible alignments, and by no means am I educated enough to really know what I'm doing, haha.

What if the Green Line goes elevated as it crosses the Elbow River and connects to the proposed Grand Central station. Remaining elevated, it turns north up 5 Street SE, then turns west, above the parking lot, to run elevated along 7th Avenue. On 7 Avenue it could have 1 large stop adjacent to Olympic Plaza (in between City Hall and 1st Street stations for easy transfers) From 7th Avenue, it then turns North at Centre street above South Bow Park. From there it runs elevated up Centre Street, has a stop at Chinatown, then across the river where it dies into existing grade.

How crack pot is that idea???!!!

Edit: It only interferes with two +15's.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

How about the best of both, an elevated tunnel?

How about this? Now...hear me out...

We elevate it...make it look exactly like the Peace Bridge, make it do a spin and loop-de-loop?

Like a life-size Hot Wheels track!

Some would say its more like a rollercoaster but it doesnt go nearly as fast...which is going to come with some problems of it's own...

"We can take the C-train!"

Are you sure grandma?

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

How about the best of both, an elevated tunnel?

In my mind, this is what an elevated tunnel would look like. The low-floor trains probably work better with this concept.

[para transit fellow]

Hmm... elevated tunnel....

instead of turning north on 2 street, we have it tunnel through the third or fourth story of Bankers Hall -- and make a downtown station on the third floor of THE CORE..

[Ahuch]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

Hmm... elevated tunnel....

instead of turning north on 2 street, we have it tunnel through the third or fourth story of through Bankers Hall -- and make a downtown station on the third floor of THE CORE..

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sounds great, since we have the low floor on order let's get shovels in the ground for a north line to 7th, and worry about the south stuff later.

Yeah. The best time to focus on the North up centre street alignment was at the beginning of the project. Next best would have been any time between then and now. But switching now is still better than their current plan.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

Would completing the 8th Avenue tunnel, sinking the red line allow the Green Line to occupy 7th Avenue and move up Centre Street? I know getting the Green Line to 7th might be a challenge, but that seems easier than what is presented now?

I find it fun to think about possible alignments, and by no means am I educated enough to really know what I'm doing, haha.

In 2020, the Green Line released a report on some of the alignment options they looked after issues came up with the river crossing. In those options, if the SE Line linked up with the Red Line, it was not possible to connect it with the NC LRT anymore. Strangely, they also decided to use the 8th Ave tunnel for the SE LRT, rather than the for the far busier Red Line.


https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....umentId=131775

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sounds great, since we have the low floor on order let's get shovels in the ground for a north line to 7th, and worry about the south stuff later.

This has always been the right idea, but they've made zero progress on the necessary land acquisition, so we can kiss this round of federal funding goodbye.

Or we could use that money for SE BRT and let the next generation hate us for building a successful transitway that will be a moderate headache convert IF/when it's justified to do so. But this opens the possibility that ridership won't actually be awesome and we'll wonder what the hell we were thinking here.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

I find it fun to think about possible alignments, and by no means am I educated enough to really know what I'm doing, haha.

What if the Green Line goes elevated as it crosses the Elbow River and connects to the proposed Grand Central station. Remaining elevated, it turns north up 5 Street SE, then turns west, above the parking lot, to run elevated along 7th Avenue. On 7 Avenue it could have 1 large stop adjacent to Olympic Plaza (in between City Hall and 1st Street stations for easy transfers) From 7th Avenue, it then turns North at Centre street above South Bow Park. From there it runs elevated up Centre Street, has a stop at Chinatown, then across the river where it dies into existing grade.

How crack pot is that idea???!!!

Edit: It only interferes with two +15's.

The big problem here is meeting at City Hall, which basically makes a mess for transfers where red/blue trains are already too full to accept the additional passengers. It would be fine for the short term with 4 car trains. And 7th wouldn't work well for constructing elevated because you disrupt the busiest street in the city.

More likely would be staying along CP Tracks/9 Ave and then turning north on Centre. Which has been looked at a bit in various reports, I'll have to look up the rationale against it. It would only go over one +15 on. each of 9th and Centre, but going up Centre takes it between Telus Sky and Bow Building and Suncor Towers, and then a bunch of shorter buildings which one might argue would be more impacted than the bottom floors of a tower.

[Fuzz]

The rationale against the centre St bridge is that it is old and may need reinforcement. There are few river crossings, so it is important not to lose capacity, particularly when others are under repair. Buses will also still use the corridor, so beyond cutting the lanes from 3 to 1 in rush hour, you also still have bus traffic, cyclists and cars. I think this decision would be incredibly short sighted and probably regretted very soon after construction on it starts.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sounds great, since we have the low floor on order let's get shovels in the ground for a north line to 7th, and worry about the south stuff later.

We really, really ####ed up by not doing this from the jump. Stupid Chu.