Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[troutman]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

If anyone is curious, here is what the levels of selenium are from the Teck mines in BC. They had a lot of issues prior to 2014 and have spent an extensive amount of money on treatment facilities to try to get to the limits imposed on them.

https://elkvalleywaterquality.gov.bc...march-2024-q1/

More info: https://elkvalleywaterquality.gov.bc...-and-timeline/

I suspect that if Alberta were to impose the same limits, they may find the treatment expenses to outweigh the benefit for a new mine. Teck was able to spend that as the mines were already quite established and large.

95% of the selenium in Lake Koocanusa is from Canadian coal mines

https://www.mtpr.org/montana-news/20...ian-coal-mines

Study says Canadian coal mines put unparalleled pollution in Montana-bound waters
U.S. Geological Survey researchers say rising levels of nitrate and selenium in Canada’s Elk River are unparalleled in the annals of modern monitoring.

https://montanafreepress.org/2023/11...-bound-waters/

$1.2B later, Teck Resources has barely put a dent in its pollution problems, documents show

https://thenarwhal.ca/bc-teck-selenium-water-treatment/

[troutman]

The issue is very divisive here. Corb Lund put on a show here in November in opposition to the coal mine, and some coal bullies tried to block the streets to prevent access. The police were called.

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/corb-lund...area-1.7116362

[Goriders]

Are you directly involved in any of the opposition. You seem to be quite knowledgeable

[Locke]

Man, I get some people aren't fans but thats a lot of effort to go to in order to stop a Corb Lund concert.

[BowRiverBruinsRule]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I’m pretty sure there’s selenium in my multivitamin. Weird how in this case it’s deemed a hazard.

Make sure you follow the daily amount it says. I get it you are not opposed to mining the east slopes, but it could be different than taking a multi vitamin with selenium in it.

[BowRiverBruinsRule]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Are you directly involved in any of the opposition. You seem to be quite knowledgeable

He lives down there and is knowledgeable.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

If anyone is curious, here is what the levels of selenium are from the Teck mines in BC. They had a lot of issues prior to 2014 and have spent an extensive amount of money on treatment facilities to try to get to the limits imposed on them.

https://elkvalleywaterquality.gov.bc...march-2024-q1/

More info: https://elkvalleywaterquality.gov.bc...-and-timeline/

I suspect that if Alberta were to impose the same limits, they may find the treatment expenses to outweigh the benefit for a new mine. Teck was able to spend that as the mines were already quite established and large.

And, importantly, Teck has yet to consistently bring the levels within the provincial government's target despite spending billions of dollars.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Are you directly involved in any of the opposition. You seem to be quite knowledgeable

I’m on the Board of the Crowsnest Conservation Society.

I swear, if they harm one cutthroat trout . . .

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I’m pretty sure there’s selenium in my multivitamin. Weird how in this case it’s deemed a hazard.

And Fluoride is in our water? WTF

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by troutman

The Economic and Social Costs of Coal Mine Development (Boom and Bust Cycle)

The development of coal towns during booms and their subsequent decline during busts often leads to significant economic and social downsides. These cycles are largely driven by fluctuations in coal demand, prices, and the shift to alternative energy sources. Key economic downsides include:

1. Economic Dependency and Vulnerability
2. Job Losses and Unemployment
3. Decline in Property Values
4. Reduced Public Revenue
5. Economic Stagnation
6. Environmental Cleanup Costs
7. Debt and Financial Instability
8. Social Disparities

The School of Public Policy Publications (University of Calgary) published in November 2021 a Research Paper “A MULTIPLE ACCOUNT BENEFIT-COST ANALYSIS OF COAL MINING IN ALBERTA”. They summarized:



https://www.policyschool.ca/wp-conte...nter-et-al.pdf

The Pembina Institute published the brochure in February 2008. “Boom to Bust Social and Cultural Impacts of the Mining Cycle”:



https://www.pembina.org/reports/boombust-final.pdf

[full disclosure - I am on the Board of the Crowsnest Conservation Society]

Come on, Grande Cache is the shining light on the hill for Coal town utopias

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Cappy

And Fluoride is in our water? WTF

Can you imagine the psychotic breaks and cognitive gymnastics people would be going through if coal mining caused fluoride to leach into the water.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Can you imagine the psychotic breaks and cognitive gymnastics people would be going through if coal mining caused fluoride to leach into the water.

Why do you think cognitive gymnastics would be needed? Fluoride is naturally in our water, a certain level is beneficial, and if it gets too high it isn't good. Fluoridation aims to get the concentration to the beneficial level - sometimes actually involves decreasing the concentration, not just adding. If mines were adding fluoride at the toxic concentration that would be a bad thing, same as selenium.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

Why do you think cognitive gymnastics would be needed? Fluoride is naturally in our water, a certain level is beneficial, and if it gets too high it isn't good. Fluoridation aims to get the concentration to the beneficial level - sometimes actually involves decreasing the concentration, not just adding. If mines were adding fluoride at the toxic concentration that would be a bad thing, same as selenium.

Yeah, but some people are shrugging off the selenium like it’s just fine cause it’s in their multivitamins. These are likely the same types who get frenzied about any amount of fluoride being added to tap water.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by BowRiverBruinsRule

Make sure you follow the daily amount it says. I get it you are not opposed to mining the east slopes, but it could be different than taking a multi vitamin with selenium in it.

I wouldn’t say I’m not opposed. I honestly don’t know enough about it. That’s why I was asking questions.

I work in the energy industry as well and see a lot of the opposition to development which isn’t always based on facts. So I like to try and get as unbiased a take as I can before forming my opinion.

End of the day I don’t think it wise to do nothing go forward. You need investment in the country or we’ll lose our standard of living. But obviously not at the expense of harming stakeholders. It’s a tricky balance.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Yeah, but some people are shrugging off the selenium like it’s just fine cause it’s in their multivitamins. These are likely the same types who get frenzied about any amount of fluoride being added to tap water.

It is in my multi vitamin though. Why not bring it up?

I’m for flouride via having zero cavities and watching my kids dental bills.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

Why do you think cognitive gymnastics would be needed? Fluoride is naturally in our water, a certain level is beneficial, and if it gets too high it isn't good. Fluoridation aims to get the concentration to the beneficial level - sometimes actually involves decreasing the concentration, not just adding. If mines were adding fluoride at the toxic concentration that would be a bad thing, same as selenium.

My comment was sarcastic.

Basically every chemical in the world can kill you at certain levels, including that dastardly H2O!

People fail to consider safe levels of one chemical vs. unsafe.

Fluoride in my water? but that can kill you!

Selenium in my water? But thats in my multivitamins so it must be safe!

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by troutman

I’m on the Board of the Crowsnest Conservation Society.

I swear, if they harm one cutthroat trout . . .

I figured you must have some involvement based on your level of detail.

I’ll ask you a question then. Because this is what I’m really curious about. Do you think there is a path that industry could take that would appease both sides of the debate. I.e. address all stakeholder concerns and still allow investment to take place.

I find these debates get very polarized and neither side has a way to see the middle ground. Guess that’s the job of the regulator. More or less a mediator.

Unfortunately almost all of these debates are between the people blockading a Corb Lund concert and the people chained to a bull dozer. It’s all noise at that point.

[D as in David]

Too bad selenium has no impact on pristine views. Or can we get it in eye drops?

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I figured you must have some involvement based on your level of detail.

I’ll ask you a question then. Because this is what I’m really curious about. Do you think there is a path that industry could take that would appease both sides of the debate. I.e. address all stakeholder concerns and still allow investment to take place.

I find these debates get very polarized and neither side has a way to see the middle ground. Guess that’s the job of the regulator. More or less a mediator.

Unfortunately almost all of these debates are between the people blockading a Corb Lund concert and the people chained to a bull dozer. It’s all noise at that point.

I'm generally pretty pro industry investment but I think part of the concern with the Eastern Slopes, or at least my concern, is the area is so limited. We're not BC where citizens have an almost unlimited supply of crown land to enjoy for recreation. And these projects aren't simply placing a pump jack, or wind turbine, in the middle of a farmers field. They're large invasive projects disturbing large pieces of a relatively limited landscape.

As an Albertan I'd like to see these landscapes protected so we can continue to enjoy them. Especially as our population continues to grow and there is even more pressure on these limited areas.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I figured you must have some involvement based on your level of detail.

I’ll ask you a question then. Because this is what I’m really curious about. Do you think there is a path that industry could take that would appease both sides of the debate. I.e. address all stakeholder concerns and still allow investment to take place.

I find these debates get very polarized and neither side has a way to see the middle ground. Guess that’s the job of the regulator. More or less a mediator.

Unfortunately almost all of these debates are between the people blockading a Corb Lund concert and the people chained to a bull dozer. It’s all noise at that point.

The CCS is not opposed to development that balances the protection of the natural environment and the people that live here.

“Private and public decisions about land development are made with the long term needs of environment, wildlife, and sustainable community as key factors.”

https://www.crowsnestconservation.ca..._plan_2022.pdf

The more we study this type of coal mine, the more we are concerned it cannot check any of the boxes. I’m not even sure it has a net economic benefit.

The area around this proposed mine is especially sensitive, and the only part of the Eastern Slopes that is not protected. Downstream of us, 200,000 people live in the Oldman watershed.