Ongoing General Automotive Thread 2.0

[Table 5]

In general though, I think manufacturers really need to start moving towards having more basic/de-contended car options. Kind of like how they do in other parts of the world, where you see the same platform go on for a couple of decades...or how we do here with the Savana/Express (even if those are not that cheap either).

Perhaps a ####ty sign of the times, but people need to have cheaper options again.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The new Integra is an unbelievable amount of money for not a lot of vehicle.

You just described the entire Honda lineup. Everything seems to be overpriced by 15-20% vs it's peers making it very much uncompetitive. They're still pricing like it's COVID times.

This also applies to anything Stellantis. Coincidence they are all struggling financially? I think not.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Table 5

They could've just kept on producing the previous-gen Caravan, alongside the Pacifica, for another 10 years and they'd probably be just fine. It may not have stacked up against the other vans in terms of tech/refinement etc, but it was still popular, and a hell of a value proposition compared to everything else. And not just for families...my dad used one as a work van (and weekend camper) for almost a decade without any issues. He didn't need a fancy van for hauling kids, he wanted something cheap that was still flexible...the Caravan was perfect for that.

I fully agree. The prices they were selling the last gen Caravan for at the end of the '10s was a great deal for families.


...but by the end of its run, the Caravan was a death trap on the IIHS front overlap crash test. Dodge was also having troubles meeting the NHTSA CAFE fleet requirements for passenger cars because of all the other aged and fuel inefficient passenger vehicles that they were selling at the time.

It was due to their own mismanagement, but FCA could not continue selling the last gen Caravan.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Table 5

In general though, I think manufacturers really need to start moving towards having more basic/de-contended car options. Kind of like how they do in other parts of the world, where you see the same platform go on for a couple of decades...or how we do here with the Savana/Express (even if those are not that cheap either).

Perhaps a ####ty sign of the times, but people need to have cheaper options again.

I wish Toyota would give us a 70 Series Land Cruiser.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by photon

New Honda Prelude coming next year, going to be a hybrid but not much more detail available yet. I like the look vs other Hondas. Just not sure the nose matches the rest of the car.

Same as the Civic, CVT with the fake emulated gear changes and pumped in sound to pretend it's a real transmission.

Rather unpleasant in a car trying to be sporty.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6...-us-late-2025/

[burn_this_city]

Maybe if Trump rolls back the CAFE requirements to 2019 we will start seeing some cheaper options return.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Table 5

In general though, I think manufacturers really need to start moving towards having more basic/de-contended car options. Kind of like how they do in other parts of the world, where you see the same platform go on for a couple of decades...or how we do here with the Savana/Express (even if those are not that cheap either).

Perhaps a ####ty sign of the times, but people need to have cheaper options again.

The average cost of a new vehicle in Canada is $66k. That's astonishing to me as in 2018 the average cost of a new vehicle was $36k. I don't know how the average family in this country can even consider purchasing a new vehicle in this day and age. The problem is that automakers are enjoying larger margins and will not likely want to give that up.

[Acey]

$66k is the average price that a new Canadian is paying for every new vehicle purchased, correct? Is that what that metric is?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Acey

Same as the Civic, CVT with the fake emulated gear changes and pumped in sound to pretend it's a real transmission.

Rather unpleasant in a car trying to be sporty.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6...-us-late-2025/

It's going to flop. I'm actually surprised the car got green lighted with that powertrain as it's not sporty enough.

[Acey]

Honda strategy, to recap:

*10th gen Civic coupe sales are sluggish, so let's cut it*
*Now that our coupe owners have bailed on the brand (literally me) let's do it again, with a powertrain and at a price that even less people will want*

It's essentially the new Si coupe, but since that car was manual only they will claw back some sales from people who didn't want the 6MT... but the majority of Civic coupe sales were the base motors with the 2.0 and non-Si 1.5T. It will flop regardless, as you say.

[Geraldsh]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

I wish Toyota would give us a 70 Series Land Cruiser.

I don’t remember the model but I loved the 4wd Toyota dept. of highway issued us in 1968. If there was a hill difficult to climb we sent the Toyota up first so it could turn around and winch up the Landrover and the Jeep.

We eventually set fire to the Landrover, trying to warm the engine enough that start after sitting in -20 weather for 4 hours. No one on the crew shed a tear.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Table 5

In general though, I think manufacturers really need to start moving towards having more basic/de-contended car options. Kind of like how they do in other parts of the world, where you see the same platform go on for a couple of decades...or how we do here with the Savana/Express (even if those are not that cheap either).

Perhaps a ####ty sign of the times, but people need to have cheaper options again.

Totally agree. Instead of making entry levels vehicles with trim packages that equip them like an S class, make something basic. Feels like a huge gap in the market. Especially now when it feels like a new car costs around 50k or more on a average. I hope one manufacturer goes this way, but instead well probably get cars with AI nonsense features for more money instead.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Totally agree. Instead of making entry levels vehicles with trim packages that equip them like an S class, make something basic. Feels like a huge gap in the market. Especially now when it feels like a new car costs around 50k or more on a average. I hope one manufacturer goes this way, but instead well probably get cars with AI nonsense features for more money instead.

Mentioned a few times, but it's actually $66K! It's bonkers.

Nissan is one company that's at least starting to offer something to counter this. They came out with a new generation of the Nissan Kicks (smallish crossover), but are going to keep offering the old generation (called Nissan Kicks Play) that's going to be about 5K cheaper than the newer generation (so starting msrp $25K vs $30K). Maybe it's not the car people dream about, but from what I've heard, it's descent for the price point, and can provide some basic transportation with a warranty (pending merger/bankruptcy?) at a more reasonable price.

Mitsubishi sadly discontinued the Mirage, which was the cheapest car on the market (I think around $17K). It wasn't particularly great either, but was at least an option.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Totally agree. Instead of making entry levels vehicles with trim packages that equip them like an S class, make something basic. Feels like a huge gap in the market. Especially now when it feels like a new car costs around 50k or more on a average. I hope one manufacturer goes this way, but instead well probably get cars with AI nonsense features for more money instead.

Gross margins are lower on entry-level vehicles, I imagine.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The average cost of a new vehicle in Canada is $66k. That's astonishing to me as in 2018 the average cost of a new vehicle was $36k. I don't know how the average family in this country can even consider purchasing a new vehicle in this day and age. The problem is that automakers are enjoying larger margins and will not likely want to give that up.

To be fair there's a few things going on besides just straight up price increases.

Electric vehicles are more expensive, but save money on fuel down the road. Those are obviously far more common than in 2018.

What people expect out of options and performance has substantially increased. When I was purchasing my first new vehicle in 2010, power windows was still an option you had to pay for. Now, you have full on computers standard in every vehicle. The same is true of performance. People just drive cars with sub 6 second 0-60 times, navigation assists, turbo engines, etc... for daily commutes.

People also don't really buy that many cars. People are buying SUVs or larger vehicles at a much higher rate. Many companies don't sell compact sedans (except for the sporty kind) anymore.

You can still get many vehicles in the $35k price range. For example, a most basic SUVs are still under $40k, but then people start throwing on a crazy amount of options and performance enhancements. They walk away with a vehicle with a 6.5 0-60 time, full leather seats, and a large stereo.

But yes, inflation is a thing, as were vehicle shortages. If you look at what you get for $36k now vs what you got for $36k in 2018, it's probably not that dissimilar. You're probably looking at closer to a $5-10k price hike.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

To be fair there's a few things going on besides just straight up price increases.

Electric vehicles are more expensive, but save money on fuel down the road. Those are obviously far more common than in 2018.

What people expect out of options and performance has substantially increased. When I was purchasing my first new vehicle in 2010, power windows was still an option you had to pay for. Now, you have full on computers standard in every vehicle. The same is true of performance. People just drive cars with sub 6 second 0-60 times, navigation assists, turbo engines, etc... for daily commutes.

People also don't really buy that many cars. People are buying SUVs or larger vehicles at a much higher rate. Many companies don't sell compact sedans (except for the sporty kind) anymore.

You can still get many vehicles in the $35k price range. For example, a most basic SUVs are still under $40k, but then people start throwing on a crazy amount of options and performance enhancements. They walk away with a vehicle with a 6.5 0-60 time, full leather seats, and a large stereo.

But yes, inflation is a thing, as were vehicle shortages. If you look at what you get for $36k now vs what you got for $36k in 2018, it's probably not that dissimilar. You're probably looking at closer to a $5-10k price hike.

I just looked at what our 2015 Impreza goes for now, it's pretty much 10k more, and a pretty similar vehicle, so a decent benchmark. $1k a year isn't too crazy.

[blankall]

The demographics of who's buying cars is changing dramatically. Basically, it's mostly older and higher income earning people:

https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/...graphics-2019/

Wealthy people aged 50+ buying cars with lots of options, while young people just don't buy them. So a lot like everything else in our current world.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The average cost of a new vehicle in Canada is $66k.

Originally Posted by Table 5

Mentioned a few times, but it's actually $66K! It's bonkers.

It's not, really. People throw that number around a lot, but don't really seem to consider where it's coming from. That number is based on AutoTrader's new car price index, which averages the list price of new cars listed on their platform, whether they sell or not. So it's effectively the average asking price of unsold used cars, which in the current climate generally means ones dealerships are trying to get inflated prices for from desperate people who want to avoid any kind of wait. It's not based on the actual average selling price of a new vehicle in Canada, which is estimated to be in the $45K range (which is still quite high compared to 5 years ago).

And beyond that, you have to consider the average vs. the median. If 1 person buys a $300K car and 9 people buy a $40K car, the average is $66K. But $66K isn't remotely reflecting the average purchase price.

That's not to say that prices haven't gone up a ton, but that $66K figure needs a ton of context.

[Table 5]

Sure, I understand that averages don't paint a complete picture. But many of the caveats applied before as well, and whether you're looking at means or averages, you still have a significant increase from 5-10 years ago.

While the high end stuff skews the numbers, the biggest impact in terms of affordability has been at the bottom end, where price sensitivity is highest. 10 years ago, you could still buy a new car under $10K msrp (the Nissan Micra came in a hair under), and there were considerably more options in the sub compact category. Today, the cheapest new car is in the low/mid 20s, and you have fewer options. That's basically a doubling in a decade.

Never mind the fact that interest rates are higher than they used to be, so people are not only paying more for the car, they are paying for a longer period, affecting their purchasing power elsewhere. That's assuming they get a good interest rate...not always the case for people at the lower end who have poor/no credit...and are often not in a position to wait around for a better deal or softer market because unlike you or I, they probably don't have another car to tide them over. The people who need affordable options the most are getting boned from all sides.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by opendoor

It's not, really. People throw that number around a lot, but don't really seem to consider where it's coming from. That number is based on AutoTrader's new car price index, which averages the list price of new cars listed on their platform, whether they sell or not. So it's effectively the average asking price of unsold used cars, which in the current climate generally means ones dealerships are trying to get inflated prices for from desperate people who want to avoid any kind of wait. It's not based on the actual average selling price of a new vehicle in Canada, which is estimated to be in the $45K range (which is still quite high compared to 5 years ago).

And beyond that, you have to consider the average vs. the median. If 1 person buys a $300K car and 9 people buy a $40K car, the average is $66K. But $66K isn't remotely reflecting the average purchase price.

That's not to say that prices haven't gone up a ton, but that $66K figure needs a ton of context.

JD Power also backs it up as the average amount financed on a new vehicle is over $50k. This figure is actually more alarming than the average selling price.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/driv...e-with-a-very/

As new car prices rise, the financial burden on Canadians keeps growing. The average amount financed for a new vehicle was $53,023 in the fourth quarter of 2022, compared with $42,359 for the same period four years ago, according to consumer research company J.D. Power.