[GDT] Ottawa Senators at Calgary Flames 7:00pm TV: SNW, TSN5, RDS - RADIO SN960

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Naitix

It is best for Flames to keep loosing this year. Montreal is almost for sure getting an additional first rounder this year. Florida won't be in the bottom 10, so Montreal will get the better of Flames or Florida 1st rounder, unless Flames draft in the top 10.

Ideal scenario is Flames get a bottom 10 pick this year, Montreal gets Florida's late 20s pick, and then Flames suck again next year to draft high.

Agreed, I just don't see it happening.

[looooob]

regarding the OP, birthday boy Frank Musil is 12th in Career Flames 'plus-minus'; fairly obscure observation but on closer inspection of the top 13 in this category 11 were on the 89 cup team, the outliers being Gio (10th) and Musil (12th). after Suter at 13, quite poetically the next 3 are Lindholm, Gaudreau, Tkachuk and then Backlund and Tanev (giving a sense of where the recent couldn't get to next level crew slots in as a group), the Conroy


digging deeper you find other famous flames and the rest of the 89 team (Peplinski, Murzyn, Otto etc)

[Kipper_3434]

Vladar has done nothing in his career to earn split starts. Waste of development for Wolf.

[Toonage]

Yeah with Wolf's record at home, I don't like that choice. And the Boston loss isn't on him.

[Cheese]

Lineup, Vladar starts

https://twitter.com/user/status/1869797456617295929

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Waste of development for Wolf.

Waste of development would be giving Wolf 1 out of every 5 starts. Even Oettinger pretty much split his first full season with the Stars.

Goaltending has been the Flames' strong point this season. If having both goalies push each other for starts is working you don't change it until you have to.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by looooob

regarding the OP, birthday boy Frank Musil is 12th in Career Flames 'plus-minus';

Under-rated Flame. Love that guy.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Waste of development would be giving Wolf 1 out of every 5 starts. Even Oettinger pretty much split his first full season with the Stars.

Goaltending has been the Flames' strong point this season. If having both goalies push each other for starts is working you don't change it until you have to.

Oettinger played 48 games his first full season. His backups would've played a combined 34 games. After tonight, Vladar will be on pace for 42GP to Wolf's 40GP. Pretty fundamental difference there. The Flames should be targeting a similar to split to what the Stars did with Oettinger.

And the idea that the Flames goalies are pushing each other for starts anymore is ridiculous. That was true in October. Since then, Vladar's been awful and there's a massive difference in their numbers. Wolf has proven himself to be the far superior goalie and should be given more starts because of it.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I don't know. That doesn't seem to be a fundamental difference.
Wolf is developing REALLY well. Whatever they are doing seems to be working.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by JayP

Oettinger played 48 games his first full season. His backups would've played a combined 34 games. After tonight, Vladar will be on pace for 42GP to Wolf's 40GP. Pretty fundamental difference there. The Flames should be targeting a similar to split to what the Stars did with Oettinger.

And the idea that the Flames goalies are pushing each other for starts anymore is ridiculous. That was true in October. Since then, Vladar's been awful and there's a massive difference in their numbers. Wolf has proven himself to be the far superior goalie and should be given more starts because of it.

That seems like a pretty minor difference. I really like Wolf - he is a fantastic young goaltender with massive potential. At the same time he is a young goaltender who they will want in between the pipes for the foreseeable future. He is developing really well as part of a tandem and with the physical nature of the position it seems prudent develop him slowly.

Where is the benefit to pushing Wolf more? His development isn't suffering - so just bringing him along slowly makes sense. Especially when you look at the huge number of goaltenders who need hip surgery by the time they are 30.

[Bingo]

Yeah how do you complain about the development of a goaltender that has basically 50% of your team's starts, sits 17th league wide in GSAA, and is getting Calder talk?

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by JayP

Oettinger played 48 games his first full season. His backups would've played a combined 34 games. After tonight, Vladar will be on pace for 42GP to Wolf's 40GP. Pretty fundamental difference there. The Flames should be targeting a similar to split to what the Stars did with Oettinger.

And the idea that the Flames goalies are pushing each other for starts anymore is ridiculous. That was true in October. Since then, Vladar's been awful and there's a massive difference in their numbers. Wolf has proven himself to be the far superior goalie and should be given more starts because of it.

His first season Ottinger played in 29 games and Khudobin played in 32. So really not much different than what Wolf and Vladar are right now. Yes, it was a shortened season but it was still the whole season and had it been 82 games they probably still split the games.

Vladar hasn't really been as bad as some like to make it out be. Save percentage doesn't always tell the story. It wouldn't have mattered who was in net last week against the Lightning.

[foofighter15]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Vladar has done nothing in his career to earn split starts. Waste of development for Wolf.

Wolfs play is showing they are doing everything right with his development. Vladars play is showcasing for the deadline. So far he’s proven he can play well when he’s not hurt but that does happen more often than you want. This whole debate will be over at the deadline

Then we can debate if Cooley is getting too many starts

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Inferno

His first season Ottinger played in 29 games and Khudobin played in 32. So really not much different than what Wolf and Vladar are right now. Yes, it was a shortened season but it was still the whole season and had it been 82 games they probably still split the games.

Vladar hasn't really been as bad as some like to make it out be. Save percentage doesn't always tell the story. It wouldn't have mattered who was in net last week against the Lightning.

That's fine if we want to count that year, but there's a chasm between having Khudobin and Vladar as your tandem partner. Both in results that year and results over their careers.

Every stat says he's been significantly worse. Wolf has a 7.42 GSAA (8th in the league) vs Vladar's -5.28 GSAA (63rd in the league). Which is basically on pace for the type of GSAA numbers Vladar has had the past two season. He's a mediocre backup.

[hwy19man]

Pregame links
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...-e9791fa0c662/
https://www.espn.com/nhl/game/_/game...enators-flames
https://www.espn.com/nhl/preview/_/gameId/401688116
https://fieldlevelmedia.com/news/sur...umping-flames/

https://ottawacitizen.com/ottawa-sen...gary-vs-flames
https://senshot.com/senators-continu...y-01jf8s5qjhhm
https://calgaryherald.com/sports/hoc...ttawa-senators
https://www.docsports.com/free-picks...bets-odds.html

https://sportschatplace.com/nhl-pick...2-19-24-picks/
https://freepicks.picksandparlays.ne...tions-12-19-24
https://winnersandwhiners.com/games/...ediction-2677/
https://statsalt.com/games/nhl/12-19...ediction-2523/


Game is on SiriusXM channel 923 for a computer and other electronics with the
Flames feed and channel 223 (Flames feed) in your vehicle.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

That seems like a pretty minor difference. I really like Wolf - he is a fantastic young goaltender with massive potential. At the same time he is a young goaltender who they will want in between the pipes for the foreseeable future. He is developing really well as part of a tandem and with the physical nature of the position it seems prudent develop him slowly.

Where is the benefit to pushing Wolf more? His development isn't suffering - so just bringing him along slowly makes sense. Especially when you look at the huge number of goaltenders who need hip surgery by the time they are 30.

I would agree that this is the only valid argument against Wolf not starting more games. Less wear and tear on the body to hopefully get more longevity out of him when the Flames actually have a team in front of him (hopefully).

[NegativeSpace]

Personally, I am waiting for the many years of debating the Flames failure to get an adequate backup for Wolf can get more games off before registering my outrage on the forum.

[Ped]

meh, Wolf is not likely at all to be harmed at all, if he plays a few more or less than some people think. Let Vladar play, too. Either he loses which helps the draft pick, or he wins and ups his trade value a bit.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think part of the problem is this team's probably already picked a lane and that lane is going to be a 12-18th OV pick with how things sit right now:

15: Flames - .563 (18th OV pick based on points percentage ignoring conference breakdown, 16th if consider the Flames would draft before the 2 Eastern conference playoff teams they are ahead of in the standings)

Bottom 10: Seattle - .485

So I think the number that's been the floor for Bottom 10 most of this season has been .480 / 78 points .

With 50 games remaining at this point and 36 points actually accumulated, the Flames can only get 42 points / .420 points percentage the rest of the season to safely be bottom 10.

Which looks more realistic than it did even 20 days ago due to going 3-5-3 in their last 11 games (.409 point percentage) but it also shows how hard it's going to be to get below that .420 threshold the rest of the season because in these last 11 games they had a 4 game losing streak, are rocking a .962 PDO (9.5 shooting percentage / .867 save percentage) and they are still just barely below that threshold.

I think that coaches and players have (and should always) picked the playoffs lane. I am also glad that Conroy demands this out of the team.


However, I think Conroy has picked the Hagens lane (or not quite that far down, but the plan was the bottom of the standings). Lots of cap space, no signings or trades in the off-season that really moved the needle. No in-season trades to try and improve the roster so far. Someone brought up a good point not that long ago in another thread - there aren't that many pieces to move before it is a complete tear-down. What's left before it is a scorched-earth rebuild, really? We may see a load-bearing wall get knocked down by the deadline with a potential Andersson trade.


Arizona drafted Tij Iginla at 6th (well, Utah I guess), but they were in a playoff spot last season around Christmas IIRC. I think that the bottom teams have all taken a step forward too - not massive moves, but I think the same number of points this year vs last year might mean 2-3 spots up the draft, everything being relative. Buffalo is in an absolute freefall, and Nashville has been a big surprise down there, so we have to see where everyone ends up, but I am betting that 5th this year will be more points than 5th last year.


I agree with Enoch - once the Flames fall out of a playoff spot, and a couple of other teams push their way between the Flames, then there is a good chance for this team to free fall harder than they did last year, with a longer runway to do so. The Flames are winning games mostly by effort, but that consistent effort is going to be harder to reproduce game in and game out when the wins aren't coming and the playoffs look unlikely.



Who knows what will really happen, but I do think that the Flames can finish bottom 5 in the standings still, and it is likely that they finish around that spot, give or take a couple of spots. Who knows, however? If they can string a few more wins together, it can start to snowball for them again the positive way, and they may make me look like an even bigger buffoon than I do usually. lol That's the fun part about sports - the unpredictability of things.

As for tonight's game - Ottawa - Calgary games are usually fun. Ottawa is desperate to turn their franchise around, but are really only treading water. I expect them to play hard, but if the Flames score first, that may be enough to just send the Sens belly-up for tonight. They strike me as a group that is ready to collapse.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah how do you complain about the development of a goaltender that has basically 50% of your team's starts, sits 17th league wide in GSAA, and is getting Calder talk?

Not about how good Wolf had been, my post is about how poor Vladar is. How Vladar isn't a part of the future in any way and hasn't earned starting as many games as he has. Wolf has earned more, but the coach keeps going back to the bottom of the barrel backup like he's a 1A. It's silliness.