Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

Its not a soapbox.

Theres a reason essentially only Governments can offer defined benefit pensions and the methods used to calculate the payout of those pensions and the liabilities that have to be booked and held...thats just math.

You’re bringing it up completely out of the context of what was being discussed, hence the soapbox comment. Ryan Coke was implying that the lower wages compared to their competitors is due to their DB plan, which btw not all Canada Post employees have, yet even those employees still have significantly lower wages. Meanwhile some of their major competitors have DB plans and still pay higher wages, and even the ones who have moved from DB to DC plans still paid higher wages when they had DB plans and were more profitable than Canada Post.

I’m not suggesting that DB plans aren’t more expensive than DC plans, that’d be nonsense. I’m saying Canada Post having a DB plan isn’t a good argument for why their hourly rates are in many cases well over 20% lower than their competitors who also have DB plans. Is that still math?

I’d ask you to show your work on how you came to the conclusion that essentially only government workers have a DB plan seeing as I know many people in the private sector(including in non union positions) that have a DB plan but I’d hate to trigger any posters into a meltdown. So I think it’s best not to risk it.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

[The usual.]

Yeah, I figured as much; the usual condescending handwaving non-arguments. Thanks for playing, I suppose.

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Go ahead and compare their rates with those in other collective agreements at large private couriers. I assume you have Google, but top rates are generally in the mid $30 to low $40 per hour range. Keep in mind that those rates will likely increase over the next 4 years. CUPW’s last ask was 19% over 4 years. Their top rate is ~$29/hour(on wage scale that takes far longer to get to top rate). So their top rate in 4 years(around $35/hour) would still be below the current average. Locke claimed that their demands would make them as “unaffordable” as all of the other profitable couriers. If Canada post can’t keep their services cheaper when they pay the lowest wages then wages aren’t the issue.

Locke said "If they get all their demands", and their demands go beyond just wages; you're arguing as though it's the only point of contention when the rest of us know that isn't the case and aren't approaching it as such.

Originally Posted by rubecube

In terms of leverage, what good would it have done them to strike during the non-busy season?

Well for starters, it wouldn't knee-cap the stone they're trying to squeeze more blood from. I already posted the financials, but CanPo has been operating at a loss since 2018 and bleeding money at an alarming rate since the pandemic with no reversal of the trend in sight. CUPW can still strike during a busy season while not completely screwing Canadians who are relying on mail and parcel delivery, and rotating strikes would be a better PR play for the union to get the public on their side, even though parcels are delayed and that still applies pain.

Demanding more things that will cost more money whilst simultaneously creating conditions where the company that is supposed to give you those things / spend that cash will lose even more than they already are seems counter-productive, unless the goal is to start collecting EI or perhaps finding employment elsewhere when the corporation becomes insolvent... and at that point, damn near everything is on the chopping block for restructuring.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Yeah, I figured as much; the usual condescending handwaving non-arguments. Thanks for playing, I suppose.

Pot meet kettle? If you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen brother. I’ve got no sympathy for people who chirp at people and then cry foul when someone chirps back better. Cry me a river.

Again, I’m sorry that Canada Post mislead you into paying for their service at a time when they couldn’t fulfil their end of the bargain which resulted in an inconvenience to you personally. I don’t work there so there’s not much I can do about that, but that doesn’t mean I need to sit here quietly while you continually try to baselessly blame the union for it.

If the frustration I sense from you stems from being called out on posting bull####, I’ve got a very simple solution that should help reduce your stress levels: stop posting bull####.

Locke said "If they get all their demands", and their demands go beyond just wages; you're arguing as though it's the only point of contention when the rest of us know that isn't the case and aren't approaching it as such.

Well he did only specifically bring up wages in his post but that’s kind of irrelevant since what happened was you never gave him the opportunity to respond and instead went on a ramble where you made a number of claims you can’t back up. Such as CUPW making the scheduling a hill to die on and won’t move at all on that when in reality Canada Post are the only ones who’ve stated publicly that they themselves won’t move at all from their own position on that. I didn’t think it was necessary to respond to your baseless claim, so I didn’t. I guess I could have asked you to show your work but you don’t seem to like it very much when people do that either.

The wage demand numbers are actually acknowledged by both sides publicly so I discussed those specifically when I responded to your post. You also brought up that the company is already struggling financially. Problem is you never really explained why we should all assume that a company that has been ran as poorly as they themselves claim to have ran it should be expected to have come up with a single magical solution that will certainly work to fix it. Or why no other options or deviations from their proposed solution should even be considered.

[Ryan Coke]

Sorry for the ambiguity, I was asking about Canada post workers specifically.

I assumed they were DB, but wasn’t sure. The relevance is that a government backed DB pension is worth a ton over a comparable job without.

The reality is that the information coming from the union is intended to paint them as below comparables and needing to catch up, while the company puts out biased information to paint the opposite picture. The truth isn’t found in talking points from either side.

I don’t hear of many CP workers leaving to work for Amazon which tells a lot. They vote with their feet that they prefer the overall package (wages, pension, benefits, lifestyle) at CP. Add to that the financial state of Canada post, and getting gains from a poorly performing company is going to be incredibly difficult.

Unfortunately when you are trying to negotiate hardball for anything, you should be aware of the strength of your negotiating position. If you are in a fairly easily replaceable position, in a competitive industry, at a struggling company, you aren’t in a strong position, unfortunately for them. And the risk of government intervention was always there, and has to be accounted for in the negotiation.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Sorry for the ambiguity, I was asking about Canada post workers specifically.

I assumed they were DB, but wasn’t sure. The relevance is that a government backed DB pension is worth a ton over a comparable job without.

The reality is that the information coming from the union is intended to paint them as below comparables and needing to catch up, while the company puts out biased information to paint the opposite picture. The truth isn’t found in talking points from either side.

I don’t hear of many CP workers leaving to work for Amazon which tells a lot. They vote with their feet that they prefer the overall package (wages, pension, benefits, lifestyle) at CP. Add to that the financial state of Canada post, and getting gains from a poorly performing company is going to be incredibly difficult.

Unfortunately when you are trying to negotiate hardball for anything, you should be aware of the strength of your negotiating position. If you are in a fairly easily replaceable position, in a competitive industry, at a struggling company, you aren’t in a strong position, unfortunately for them. And the risk of government intervention was always there, and has to be accounted for in the negotiation.

That pretty much sums her up.

[Geraldsh]

If I owned a business my gears would be grinding right now; the government has posted that the gst holiday is not mandatory.
Customers can save their receipts and send them into CRA for reimbursement

[chemgear]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/cana...dren-1.7146068

Canada Post union negotiator bucks at labour minister's calling for a 'time-out'

"I feel like he's treating us like children," Gallant told CTV Power Play host Mike Le Couteur in an interview on Friday. "It's time-out, that's for sure."

[Dion]

Originally Posted by chemgear

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/cana...dren-1.7146068

Canada Post union negotiator bucks at labour minister's calling for a 'time-out'

"I feel like he's treating us like children," Gallant told CTV Power Play host Mike Le Couteur in an interview on Friday. "It's time-out, that's for sure."

It would take a good month or longer to clear up the backlog of mail and packages so Christmas has been effectively ruined.

Let em stay out on the picket lines if they want and see what little bargaining power they have left end this strike.

[chemgear]

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...-to-work-order

'We're not going back:' Calgary postal workers defiant in face of impending back-to-work order

“We must determine the content of our next contract … we weren’t out here four weeks for nothing,” he said.

Postal workers in Calgary voiced defiance Saturday, insisting they won’t settle for a status-quo contract even as they confront a likely back-to-work order.

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB) says small firms have been losing $100 million a day due to the strike while charities say it’s hammered their fundraising efforts by disrupting mailed donor requests and donations.

CFIB President Dan Kelly on Friday welcomed the prospect of Canada Post staff being ordered back to work but said the strike has done irreparable damage both to business and the federal crown corporation.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Sorry for the ambiguity, I was asking about Canada post workers specifically.

I assumed they were DB, but wasn’t sure. The relevance is that a government backed DB pension is worth a ton over a comparable job without.

Originally Posted by Locke

That pretty much sums her up.

It’s a corporate pension, not a public pension. Canada Post being a crown corporation does not make the pension government backed. The government can sell off Canada Post at anytime they choose to. They’ve sold off portions of the corporation as recently as this year.

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I don’t hear of many CP workers leaving to work for Amazon which tells a lot. They vote with their feet that they prefer the overall package (wages, pension, benefits, lifestyle) at CP.

There’s a lot of people who could leave their current jobs for higher paying positions elsewhere and don’t do it for a number of reasons. People not fleeing a company for another company that pays way less isn’t confirmation that their employer is compensating them fairly

Add to that the financial state of Canada post, and getting gains from a poorly performing company is going to be incredibly difficult.

Odd that Canada Post voluntarily offered a raise.

Unfortunately when you are trying to negotiate hardball for anything, you should be aware of the strength of your negotiating position. If you are in a fairly easily replaceable position, in a competitive industry, at a struggling company, you aren’t in a strong position, unfortunately for them. And the risk of government intervention was always there, and has to be accounted for in the negotiation.

I don’t think Canada post(or anyone else for that matter) were expecting the government not to intervene.

[V]

Which of the competitors offers a DB pension anymore? I thought those were a fairy tale for anyone not in the public sector or publicly owned companies?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

If I owned a business my gears would be grinding right now; the government has posted that the gst holiday is not mandatory.
Customers can save their receipts and send them into CRA for reimbursement

BREAKING NEWS: 6 hours before the GST/HST holiday is set to begin, CFIB confirms with government that it is NOT mandatory for businesses to participate: "This measure is now law. We expect businesses to comply with the new rules, but we don’t intend to chase after small businesses that may struggle to implement the measure in time. There remain pathways for businesses and all Canadians to obtain their GST relief on qualifying goods through the CRA."

Imagine spending hours upon hours updating your system for this...

[EldrickOnIce]

Given all the US health care talk, obviously this must be the health care delivery every nation aspires to

Montreal man died of an aneurysm after waiting in the ER for six hours

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/montreal...n-er-1.7146109

[Fuzz]

Sounds like he died because he chose to leave, which they pretty much always advise you against.

And I mean, I hope that wasn't supposed to be a dunk or something, it's not like the US system doesn't have it's own issues that also lead to people dying.

After losing her job in May 2016, Finley also lost her health insurance coverage and struggled to find a new job. Three months later, Finley was found dead in her apartment after avoiding going to see a doctor for flu-like symptoms.

A December 2019 poll conducted by Gallup found 25% of Americans say they or a family member have delayed medical treatment for a serious illness due to the costs of care, and an additional 8% report delaying medical treatment for less serious illnesses. A study conducted by the American Cancer Society in May 2019 found 56% of adults in America report having at least one medical financial hardship, and researchers warned the problem is likely to worsen unless action is taken.

Despite millions of Americans delaying medical treatment due to the costs, the US still spends the most on healthcare of any developed nation in the world, while covering fewer people and achieving worse overall health outcomes. A 2017 analysis found the United States ranks 24th globally in achieving health goals set by the United Nations. In 2018, $3.65tn was spent on healthcare in the United States, and these costs are projected to grow at an annual rate of 5.5% over the next decade.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-medical-costs

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Imagine spending hours upon hours updating your system for this...

If it took hours and hours your system probably needed a serious overhaul. Across 5 stores, setting up for this took me probably three hours?

The hardest part was figuring out what was and wasn't applicable. But once we knew? Barely no time at all.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

There’s a lot of people who could leave their current jobs for higher paying positions elsewhere and don’t do it for a number of reasons. People not fleeing a company for another company that pays way less isn’t confirmation that their employer is compensating them fairly

Care to provide some examples?

Usually it's things like seniority, job security, vacation time, or not wanting to give up a rock solid pension that keep people working in a lesser paying job. That or they just like the culture where they are so much they won't leave.

Clearly you do not think any of these apply to Canada Post. So why are these people staying if all these other companies have a massive supply of better jobs to offer?

At my last company which had been performing poorly for a number of years. The people who were not jumping ship were staying largely because they had so much seniority and vacation and didn't want change with less than 5 years left in their career. They were related to the family who owned the business, or they knew they were not getting anything close to the same job elsewhere. There were a lot of high paid low production people who were very comfortable just hoping to get a nice severance which in turn just made the work environment worse. There are a few people who hold out hoping things will get better. But eventually they also leave after years of seeing the status quo.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sounds like he died because he chose to leave, which they pretty much always advise you against.

And I mean, I hope that wasn't supposed to be a dunk or something, it's not like the US system doesn't have it's own issues that also lead to people dying.



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-medical-costs

Also isn’t this more of a provincial matter? That said, if he was really listening to his body like he said in his twitter post, he would have stayed put at the hospital until they fully checked him out.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Care to provide some examples?

Usually it's things like seniority, job security, vacation time, or not wanting to give up a rock solid pension that keep people working in a lesser paying job. That or they just like the culture where they are so much they won't leave.

Clearly you do not think any of these apply to Canada Post. So why are these people staying if all these other companies have a massive supply of better jobs to offer?

At my last company which had been performing poorly for a number of years. The people who were not jumping ship were staying largely because they had so much seniority and vacation and didn't want change with less than 5 years left in their career. They were related to the family who owned the business, or they knew they were not getting anything close to the same job elsewhere. There were a lot of high paid low production people who were very comfortable just hoping to get a nice severance which in turn just made the work environment worse.

Yep. Happens a lot. Many workers dont have a cornucopia of skills that will translate into another job that will:

- Pay them more
- Offer better hours
- Have a better pension
- More vacation

You get the idea. Not to mention, if you're invested in the pension to within a few years? You're not going anywhere.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Care to provide some examples?

Usually it's things like seniority, job security, vacation time, or not wanting to give up a rock solid pension that keep people working in a lesser paying job. That or they just like the culture where they are so much they won't leave.

Clearly you do not think any of these apply to Canada Post. So why are these people staying if all these other companies have a massive supply of better jobs to offer?

I’m not sure you correctly read my post but I will give this a shot. If you’re asking for an example for why people won’t leave a job for a higher paying position elsewhere it could be as simple as their work life balance.

At my last company which had been performing poorly for a number of years. The people who were not jumping ship were staying largely because they had so much seniority and vacation and didn't want change with less than 5 years left in their career. They were related to the family who owned the business, or they knew they were not getting anything close to the same job elsewhere. There were a lot of high paid low production people who were very comfortable just hoping to get a nice severance which in turn just made the work environment worse. There are a few people who hold out hoping things will get better. But eventually they also leave after years of seeing the status quo.

What does any of this have to do with whether or not they are being paid fairly?

To be honest I’m a little baffled by your post, you asked me to give you examples for why people would stay at a lower paying job as if my statement of such wasn’t true, the you proceeded to give numerous examples of people doing just that and the reasons why.

I haven’t been this confused since Dion posted that the strike ruined his Christmas.

[CaptainCrunch]

Two things boiling


Sean Fraser is leaving the Liberal Caucus next week and not running in the next election.


Freeland is looking at reversing course on the $250.00 tax break check and not doing it.