Fixing Forever A Flame

[getbak]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Depends how you calculate. I calculate from 1980. Not 1972 Atlanta.

Yes, we are young.

15 teams existed in their current locations when the Flames moved to Calgary. Half the league is "younger".

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Depends how you calculate. I calculate from 1980. Not 1972 Atlanta.

Yes, we are young.

Even calculating from 1980 we’re not a young team. Unless your argument is that any team that isn’t original six is “young” which is weird. 44 years is a long time for any club.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Niewey, Vernon, Backlund, Gio, etc, those are all very special players to the Flames, but are not distinguished league-wide.

Mike Vernon was drafted by the Flames. He was the starting goalie in the playoffs in 1985-86 where they went to their first Stanley Cup Finals. He was the starting goalie for the team that won the Presidents' Trophy in 1987-88 and 1988-89. He is the only goalie that won a Stanley Cup in Calgary.

Even if he retired after the 1993-94 season, he should probably have his number retired for the above. Instead he won a Jennings trophy in 1995-96 and won another Cup in 1997 when he also won the Conn Smythe. He's in the HHOF. Yes, Vernon deserves his number to be retired and is distinguished league wide.

[Johnny Makarov]

You youngsters should go to church and pray for forgiveness for dismissing Vernon.

Before Vernon we could NOT beat the Oilers! It was the most effing disturbing thing for me as a kid.

Bouchard, Riggin, Lemelin, Edwards all failed. Then God Vernon came from the Wranglers and saved the Flames.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Even calculating from 1980 we’re not a young team. Unless your argument is that any team that isn’t original six is “young” which is weird. 44 years is a long time for any club.

Ok, young is a subjective term.

My claim that retirements should happen less than once per decade mean that a 44-year-old franchise should have 3 retirements, maybe 4.

Flames are good as-is.

I wish they would revamp FaF into a ring of honour type of deal in the new arena and be quite liberal with the selection criteria. Canucks do that correctly.

Special players like Backlund, Gio, Niewey, Regehr, Monahan, etc should all be included in that. Basically fan favorites or being top 5 any one stat category.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Retirements need to be reserved for league-wide special players.

MacInnes, Lanny, Iggy & Kipper all fit that criteria.

Niewey, Vernon, Backlund, Gio, etc, those are all very special players to the Flames, but are not distinguished league-wide.

Squiggly covered Vernon so I'll take 25.


Joe Nieuwendyk is in the Hockey Hall of Fame. He won the Stanley cup three times with three different teams. 2x Olympic Gold medalist. Calder Trophy, King Clancy Trophy, Conn Smyth playoff MVP in 99. 500 goals and 1100 points.

Come on

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Squiggly covered Vernon so I'll take 25.


Joe Nieuwendyk is in the Hockey Hall of Fame. He won the Stanley cup three times with three different teams. 2x Olympic Gold medalist. Calder Trophy, King Clancy Trophy, Conn Smyth playoff MVP in 99. 500 goals and 1100 points.

Come on

The argument against Nieuwey is he didn't spend most of his career here. But I agree that he was a phenomenal player. I think he was named one of the 100 greatest of all time.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The argument against Nieuwey is he didn't spend most of his career here. But I agree that he was a phenomenal player. I think he was named one of the 100 greatest of all time.

I dont think there even is an argument against Niewendyk. He's a St. Louis Blue. Thats how sees himself and thats that. Move along.

He was an amazing player, it was great having him here, but thats where his heart is. Nothing wrong with that.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont think there even is an argument against Niewendyk. He's a St. Louis Blue. Thats how sees himself and thats that. Move along.

He was an amazing player, it was great having him here, but thats where his heart is. Nothing wrong with that.

Narrator: He was, in fact, not one of the St. Louis Blues. His number has not been retired by any NHL team, especially the St. Louis Blues.

Nieuwendyk was in Calgary from 1986-1995, the same amount of time as Vernon, but started and finished one year after Mike. He then went to Dallas after he was traded for some guy named Jarome Iginla. He went to New Jersey, where he won another Cup, and then finished with Toronto and Florida. He worked for both of those teams in the front office.

[BigThief]

Are you thinking about AL MacInnis?

[FleeceGang]

I'm pretty sure I've read/heard somewhere that MacInnis left the team on pretty rocky terms with management/the owners. Flames went to him and said they would like to retire his number but Al said don't bother and made it clear that if they did he wouldn't show up to the ceremony. Same source cited this as one of the reasons for the forever a flame. Forget where that information came from but Al had more GP, points, goals, and assists with the Flames as well as a cup here yet he chose to be remembered and honored as a Blue... Seems suspicious.

[BigThief]

MacInnis has said he considers himself both a Blue had a Flame. The one rumour was that he didnt want his number retired while (then) working in Blues management. To be honest I don't know if I believe either. Why would he show up for one honor but not the other. Why would a number being retired affect him so negatively?

I think Ken King had a good idea but messed it up and fans are trying to make sense of why Al MacInnis, one of the greatest players we've ever had, isnt retired

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by FleeceGang

I'm pretty sure I've read/heard somewhere that MacInnis left the team on pretty rocky terms with management/the owners. Flames went to him and said they would like to retire his number but Al said don't bother and made it clear that if they did he wouldn't show up to the ceremony. Same source cited this as one of the reasons for the forever a flame. Forget where that information came from but Al had more GP, points, goals, and assists with the Flames as well as a cup here yet he chose to be remembered and honored as a Blue... Seems suspicious.

The FaF ceremony was practically identical to a retirement ceremony. I remember his speech clearly.

I think it was more a function of him not wanting to be retired while a manager at the Blues.

[undercoverbrother]

I don't like forever a Flame.

Kinda says, we like you......just not that much.

I like retiring numbers, but they need to be Iconic members of the organization.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I don't like forever a Flame.

Kinda says, we like you......just not that much.

I like retiring numbers, but they need to be Iconic members of the organization.

That's the whole point of FAF, even if it was poorly executed. If you only celebrate iconic members, you will have very few ceremonies, or you will have some watered down ones like the canucks. They have six retired numbers and have never won a Cup. That is way too many sweaters to be hung for zero Cups.

I have mentioned it many times here before, but the SF Giants do this well. They have the retired numbers. Previously you had to, at a minimum, be in the HOF to have your number retired. When Bonds didn't get in they relaxed it and have since retired Clark's #22 and Bonds's #25. They also have a wall of fame for the guys who were great and should be remembered, but not great enough to have their numbers retired. The minimum criteria was to have played at least nine seasons for SF or five seasons and at least one All-Star. They have guys who helped them win the three World Series championships like Cain, Wilson, Pence, Affeldt, Casilla, Lopez, and Romo. None of those guys should have their numbers retired, but they are fan favourites. It's awesome to go to those ceremonies and relive some of their iconic memories. It's further awesome to walk around the stadium and see their plaques and say, "I saw them play". That's what the FAF is supposed to be. Guys like Conroy, Regehr, Monahan, Gelinas, Loob, Mullen, Gilmour, and Roberts. Give them a day to be remembered and then a plaque somewhere around the arena. I wouldn't do a banner, but that's just me.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Locke

I think they should have those wacky inflatable arm guys with jersey numbers on them in the concourse.

Problem Solved.

Ok, I laughed.

In fact I’m picturing it now. And laughing.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Lewis_D

Yeah retired numbers are cool and everything, and we could likely debate it till the cows come home.

But we gotta start asking the actual hard hitting question. Who's getting a statue when we move into the new building??

Hopefully no one. Not sure there's someone with the franchise who has reached that level yet. Besides, based on the recent Dwayne Wade statue, I'm not sure the craftsmanship these days is where we'd like it to be for a proper statue.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Ok, I laughed.

In fact I’m picturing it now. And laughing.

Solving problems. Its what I do.

Just think of Theo's face on one of those guys as their arms go everywhere! It'd be great!

I could probably broker peace in the middle east!*

*Not a guarantee

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Squiggly covered Vernon so I'll take 25.


Joe Nieuwendyk is in the Hockey Hall of Fame. He won the Stanley cup three times with three different teams. 2x Olympic Gold medalist. Calder Trophy, King Clancy Trophy, Conn Smyth playoff MVP in 99. 500 goals and 1100 points.

Come on

So when do we retire #68 for Jagr? He was pretty good wasn’t he? He’s got a couple cups, is the 2nd leading scorer all time, is still playing professional hockey in his 50s like Gordie Howe, what more does it take to have Jagr’s jersey retired?!?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont think there even is an argument against Niewendyk. He's a St. Louis Blue. Thats how sees himself and thats that. Move along.

He was an amazing player, it was great having him here, but thats where his heart is. Nothing wrong with that.

lol