On an interesting sidenote this is now the end of Baathism after almost 80 year of it being a defining political movement and ideology in the Arab World, effectively Islam has finally killed Marxist based Socialism in the region
Baathism has /had a pretty complicated connection to Marxism and socialism, and it's probably as closely tied to fascism, despite the rhetorics.
While there's obviously a lot of variation, generally speaking the only parts of socialism Baathism commonly accepts are one-party rule (and typically dictatorship rule), national ownership of resources, planned economies, giving land to farmers, and some socialist economics, but again not in a class-conscious way, so it's less "equal distribution of wealth" and more "keeping the masses pacified by spending some oil-money".
It generally rejects key Marxist socialist concepts such as class-struggle and uniting workers across borders, replacing them with protectionism and pan-Arabic nationalism, which supports "ethnic unity", often leading to ethnic cleansings.
(Also, Iraq was the most significant Baathist nation, and Saddam was taken down by a US lead military aggression. Islamism only stepped in to fill the vacuum.)
Last edited by Itse; 12-08-2024 at 09:14 AM.
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Baathism has /had a pretty complicated connection to Marxism and socialism, and it's probably as closely tied to fascism, despite the rhetorics.
While there's obviously a lot of variation, generally speaking the only parts of socialism Baathism commonly accepts are one-party rule (and typically dictatorship rule), national ownership of resources, planned economies and giving land to farmers.
It generally rejects key Marxist socialist concepts such as class-struggle and uniting workers across borders, replacing them with protectionism and pan-Arabic nationalism, which supports "ethnic unity", often leading to ethnic cleansings.
(Also, Iraq was the most significant Baathist nation, and Saddam was taken down by a US lead military aggression. Islamism only stepped in to fill the vacuum.)
Showers are just more efficient, especially in arid regions.
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Baathism has /had a pretty complicated connection to Marxism and socialism, and it's probably as closely tied to fascism, despite the rhetorics.
While there's obviously a lot of variation, generally speaking the only parts of socialism Baathism commonly accepts are one-party rule (and typically dictatorship rule), national ownership of resources, planned economies, giving land to farmers, and some socialist economics, but again not in a class-conscious way, so it's less "equal distribution of wealth" and more "keeping the masses pacified by spending some oil-money".
It generally rejects key Marxist socialist concepts such as class-struggle and uniting workers across borders, replacing them with protectionism and pan-Arabic nationalism, which supports "ethnic unity", often leading to ethnic cleansings.
(Also, Iraq was the most significant Baathist nation, and Saddam was taken down by a US lead military aggression. Islamism only stepped in to fill the vacuum.)
So it's basically like all other real life examples of communism. The leaders become corrupt and live a luxurious lifestyle. Everyone else gets poverty.
So it's basically like all other real life examples of communism. The leaders become corrupt and live a luxurious lifestyle. Everyone else gets poverty.
I remember talking to a friend of mine way back in the day when there was still the Soviet Union, and he had a theory that the fall of communism would come down to appliance brands.
The bosses, the party leaders the members of the politburo. All had sparkling new German and American appliances in their house. Dishwashers and trashcompacters and stoves etc. And they were so disconnected from the people that they were supposed to serve that they just figured that all of their citizens had the same luxuries under Communism. It was the same with food. It didn't help that everything that came to them report wise or indicator wise told him the same thing. The people had access to these luxuries and good food, because the one thing that didn't vanish when Stalin died was that everyone lied to the senior leadership to keep their jobs or in some extent lives.
So when the discontent hit and the whole system failed, the last people that understood why this was happening were those leaders.
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Nice home appliances, cars etc. are a pretty low level of luxury for national leadership, relatively speaking. It's honestly a little funny people even bring that stuff up.
Yeah, Soviet leadership sucked, but that's hardly a notable way in which they sucked
Last edited by Itse; 12-08-2024 at 11:02 AM.
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Nice home appliances, cars etc. are a pretty low level of luxury for national leadership, relatively speaking. It's honestly a little funny people even bring that stuff up.
Yeah, Soviet leadership sucked, but that's hardly a notable way in which they sucked
lol that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Oh yeah, Assad loved loading his Bosch dishwasher. It was so quiet, which was nice for when he was doing meal prep for the week. Heck, he could even throw in a load of towels in his GE front load washer and set the delay timer to run while he slept. Dumping his coffee grounds right into the garburator instead of putting them in the trash was a real time saver. Then just put fresh grounds in the night before and set his Cuisinart to make a fresh pot of coffee for 7am.
This is such an interesting situation, with so much information to come out about how this unfolded so quickly. Rebel leadership saying all the right things so far, but could just be a way of forestalling foreign intervention until they crystallize power. But it would be nice to think this may come with a bit more hope for the future for Syria.
Also really interesting implications for Russia and Iran, as it tends to suggest their power has significantly retreated - Russia likely due to the investment in its idiotic war in Ukraine, and Iran for its efforts at home, in propping up its Axis of Resistance and fight with Israel, and in Syria too.
Hopefully Syria doesn't just quickly devolve into a Balkan-style carving up of territory with all the larger powers having their hands in it, but that seems likely on the table too.
Hopefully Syria doesn't just quickly devolve into a Balkan-style carving up of territory with all the larger powers having their hands in it, but that seems likely on the table too.
I think it'll come out eventually that the US most definitely already has their hands in this given their long history of foreign interference and regime change. Syria has long been on their list and was confirmed years ago in the WikiLeaks video of the US official naming the 7 countries on their list for regime change (Iraq, Libya, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Sudan, can't remember the other one).
The other clue to me has been the recent softening up of the rebels leader via US propoganda channels for their populations to see to reduce opposition to what's happening given the US and UK had put the guy on their terrorist list before.
CNN: How Syria’s rebel leader went from radical jihadist to a blazer-wearing ‘revolutionary’
Telegraph: ‘Moderate’ jihadist leader storms Syria – but tells troops not to frighten children
I saw that CNN also immediately had a guy in an exclusive interview...
Propping up the enemy of your enemy doesn't always work well as New Yorkers know very well.
I don't know, overthrowing an established government and military is probably quite difficult for rebels. The organization required and intelligence needed, I can't imagine these groups being capable of alone. Having Assad overthrown helps the US and Israel as they've always wanted a West-friendly leader in Syria. Also good timing as the Russians are tied up in Ukraine right now. Not sure if there's any truth to Israel already having moved the IDF into parts of Syria? If so, this also helps Israel on that front to create a larger buffer area.
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I think it'll come out eventually that the US most definitely already has their hands in this given their long history of foreign interference and regime change. Syria has long been on their list and was confirmed years ago in the WikiLeaks video of the US official naming the 7 countries on their list for regime change (Iraq, Libya, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Sudan, can't remember the other one).
The other clue to me has been the recent softening up of the rebels leader via US propoganda channels for their populations to see to reduce opposition to what's happening given the US and UK had put the guy on their terrorist list before.
CNN: How Syria’s rebel leader went from radical jihadist to a blazer-wearing ‘revolutionary’
Telegraph: ‘Moderate’ jihadist leader storms Syria – but tells troops not to frighten children
I saw that CNN also immediately had a guy in an exclusive interview...
Propping up the enemy of your enemy doesn't always work well as New Yorkers know very well.
I don't know, overthrowing an established government and military is probably quite difficult for rebels. The organization required and intelligence needed, I can't imagine these groups being capable of alone. Having Assad overthrown helps the US and Israel as they've always wanted a West-friendly leader in Syria. Also good timing as the Russians are tied up in Ukraine right now. Not sure if there's any truth to Israel already having moved the IDF into parts of Syria? If so, this also helps Israel on that front to create a larger buffer area.
Turkey is the big backer of the rebels. Of course, not the Kurdish rebels (they still bomb those guys that happen to have control of 1/3 of Syria), but the Islamist rebels.
Turkey, Iran, Russia, and the U.S. all have their fingers in that pie. I don't think the U.S. more so than the others though.
It will be interesting to see what Turkey does here. Do they immediately handover the Turkish occupied areas to the new regime? I guess it probably depends on who fills the vacuum, but some believe Erdogan has neo-Ottoman desires for the region. And what happens if Turkey does not return them and the new Syrian regime attacks Turkey, does that draw NATO in.
The possibilities are numerous here so I guess no point in worrying about it until things unfold. I can't help but worry a little though because there is the potential for things to go right off the rails.
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Syria is a fascinating case due to all of the regional and global players that have a stake in Syria’s affairs - Turkey, Iran, Russia, Israel, USA, etc.
Hopeful this is a positive inflection point in Syria’s history, after so much war and misery. However, Iraq was supposed to become a stable democracy after Saddam, and Libya was supposed to thrive after Gaddafi was dragged through the streets, and neither has turned out as most would have hoped.
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While its a positve that Assad is gone, I don't know if that positive is going to last long. the new leadership has a long way to go to gain anykind of trust. There are too many ISIS and Al Queda members involved here.
I doubt we see a legitimate election, I think it will be more like Afghanistan after the Russian's were defeated and the crazies took over.
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