[News] "Scotia Place" ground breaking and design release on July 22 1pm MT

[Locke]

Originally Posted by fotze2

My buds is a big swinging dink designing this thing. He said it’s gonna be unreal. He’s not the type to exaggerate.

So...are we talking about tubes at your seat that just connect to your junk so that one can consume beer relentlessly?

[FlamesAddiction]

It's interesting to me that they are designing it with the AHL team in the long term plans. I thought when the AHL team located to Calgary, that it wasn't going to be a forever thing. Don't get me wrong, it's been great having the AHL team right there, but I figured the eventual plan would be to move it to an exclusive market if one opened up.

Maybe a little OT, but I wonder about the dollars and cents of having the AHL team in Calgary versus having it in a city where it wouldn't be competing for butts in seats with an NHL or WHL team or in a place with less travel. Do the cost savings and convenience of sharing a facility with the Flames and transactions make up for that? Or were the last few AHL stops so non-profiting that it's not even worth trying again?

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's interesting to me that they are designing it with the AHL team in the long term plans. I thought when the AHL team located to Calgary, that it wasn't going to be a forever thing. Don't get me wrong, it's been great having the AHL team right there, but I figured the eventual plan would be to move it to an exclusive market if one opened up.

Maybe a little OT, but I wonder about the dollars and cents of having the AHL team in Calgary versus having it in a city where it wouldn't be competing for butts in seats with an NHL or WHL team or in a place with less travel. Do the cost savings and convenience of sharing a facility with the Flames and transactions make up for that? Or were the last few AHL stops so non-profiting that it's not even worth trying again?

The Flames save money on not having to fly their development staff or management to and from Stockton (or Quad City or Glens Falls), and they can get better AHL veterans because they can stay in the same city and it makes life easier for their families. The efficiencies seemingly outweigh the challenges of playing in a saturated hockey market.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The Flames save money on not having to fly their development staff or management to and from Stockton (or Quad City or Glens Falls), and they can get better AHL veterans because they can stay in the same city and it makes life easier for their families. The efficiencies seemingly outweigh the challenges of playing in a saturated hockey market.

Possibly others but it's the #1 reason Cooley and Costco signed here.

[PepsiFree]

On top of the convenience of staying in the same city, I would imagine the appeal of playing in an NHL arena (especially a brand new one shortly here) and playing in a city as nice as Calgary is pretty huge.

Some AHL cities are genuinely terrible and the arenas they play in aren’t much better.

You basically get the NHL experience for your home games even if you aren’t in the show.

[Enoch Root]

Also, why pay rent elsewhere, when you already own a building that is empty many nights.

I don't know how attendance compares to Stockton (my guess is it is higher), but regardless, the other benefits are massive.

THe ability for management to see all home games, and practices, and communicate with the coaching staff directly, would far outweigh any cost differentials (and I doubt the costs are higher)

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Or just an oldschool trough

I've never understood the trough argument.

If you go into the men's room at the Saddledome during the intermission of a Flames game, people at the urinals are already standing shoulder-to-shoulder. A trough isn't going to magically create more space.

If anything, it would reduce capacity because people will naturally space themselves out so they're not shoulder-to-shoulder, but also not far enough apart for another person to squeeze in the gap.

People who design public transit seating have been dealing with this issue for decades. What they have found is if they have a gap that's wide enough for 4 people to be seated, it's better to provide 4 separate seats than one long bench. If there's a bench, the first person to arrive will sit at one end of the bench, the second person will sit at the other end of the bench, and the third person will sit right in the middle. There won't be enough room between them for a fourth person to sit down and most people won't ask the three people who are seated to squeeze together to make room for a fourth. On the other hand, if there are 4 separate seats, the third person will take one of the two open seats, leaving the fourth for another person to occupy.

This same thing happens in all similar situations, whether it's transit seating, bleachers at a sporting event or concert, or even park benches.

If you walked into a men's room with 10 urinals in a row and 9 were occupied, you'd just go and use the unoccupied one. If you walked into the same men's room with a long trough that had 9 men evenly spaced along its length, it's unlikely that you would start yelling at them to squeeze together because there's enough room for 10.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Do you - or does anyone - know the urinal count in the Saddledome?

Very odd, BTW, that they would not put washrooms in the suites - I can't see that going over well.

Years ago, someone posted a scan of the old Saddledome blueprints from 1983. Looking at those, when the building opened, there were 100 urinals and 18 stalls in the 4 men's rooms on the main concourse. The two big washrooms in the corners have double the capacity of the smaller ones on the sides. The women's rooms had 70 stalls.

There were a few more on the suite level and a couple on what is now known as the Press Level.


With the mid-90s renovation, some changes were made. An additional concourse was added on the lower club level, which added a few more facilities for people sitting in the club section. The press level washrooms were expanded at some point as well. However, they also removed a bunch of urinals on the main concourse when the large corner washrooms were divided to provide additional space for women's rooms. I don't know how many removed, but looking at the blueprints, I'd guess it was about 14 in each of the corner washrooms, or 28 total -- which would drop the number on the main concourse from 100 to 72. Even with the additional ones on the club and press levels, the total is still likely well below 100.

It looks like the new building will have roughly the same number of urinals as the Saddledome, but a lot more toilet stalls for men (which, with the increased use of Ozempic in society, is probably a good thing), significantly increasing the total number of facilities available.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by fotze2

My buds is a big swinging dink designing this thing. He said it’s gonna be unreal. He’s not the type to exaggerate.

There's a lot to unpack here.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There's a lot to unpack here.

just don't unpack the BSD

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

On top of the convenience of staying in the same city, I would imagine the appeal of playing in an NHL arena (especially a brand new one shortly here) and playing in a city as nice as Calgary is pretty huge.

Some AHL cities are genuinely terrible and the arenas they play in aren’t much better.

You basically get the NHL experience for your home games even if you aren’t in the show.

Beats fearing for your life when you walk to the bus from the arena.

The story of them being told not to wear blood or crip colours was hilarious and crazy.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The Flames save money on not having to fly their development staff or management to and from Stockton (or Quad City or Glens Falls), and they can get better AHL veterans because they can stay in the same city and it makes life easier for their families. The efficiencies seemingly outweigh the challenges of playing in a saturated hockey market.

The other part of it is the ability to hold a smaller roster for longer stretches in the season (20-21 players versus 23). This can save a team in actual dollars and also cap space in seasons where you're looking to maximize that.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Jordan!

That’s awesome the building looks like Flames flickering at night. I need to get to a game at the Dome one last time, first time with my son who’s 6 years old before it closes.

I'm in the exact same boat. Haven't been to a game at the Saddledome in 20 years. I plan on taking my 7 year old before it closes.

On the brightside WestJet is going to be flying from Calgary directly to my hometown!

On the downside it's from June to September.

Part of me really wants to go to the April 11th game against the Wild. It's a tossup if Fleury starts, but he'll forever be my favourite player, even if he never wore the flaming C on his chest.

[calgarygeologist]

I was massively impressed by the washroom situation at the new Intuit Dome. There was a washroom basically outside of each section entrance and they huge and amazingly clean. At any point during the game it was super quick to go to the bathroom and miss very little of the game. I think that Ballmer said they installed 1,100 toilets/urinals.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by getbak

I've never understood the trough argument.

If you go into the men's room at the Saddledome during the intermission of a Flames game, people at the urinals are already standing shoulder-to-shoulder. A trough isn't going to magically create more space.

If anything, it would reduce capacity because people will naturally space themselves out so they're not shoulder-to-shoulder, but also not far enough apart for another person to squeeze in the gap.

People who design public transit seating have been dealing with this issue for decades. What they have found is if they have a gap that's wide enough for 4 people to be seated, it's better to provide 4 separate seats than one long bench. If there's a bench, the first person to arrive will sit at one end of the bench, the second person will sit at the other end of the bench, and the third person will sit right in the middle. There won't be enough room between them for a fourth person to sit down and most people won't ask the three people who are seated to squeeze together to make room for a fourth. On the other hand, if there are 4 separate seats, the third person will take one of the two open seats, leaving the fourth for another person to occupy.

This same thing happens in all similar situations, whether it's transit seating, bleachers at a sporting event or concert, or even park benches.

If you walked into a men's room with 10 urinals in a row and 9 were occupied, you'd just go and use the unoccupied one. If you walked into the same men's room with a long trough that had 9 men evenly spaced along its length, it's unlikely that you would start yelling at them to squeeze together because there's enough room for 10.

Urinal troughs are exactly what our city's busses need.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Urinal troughs are exactly what our city's busses need.

*Shuddering thinking of Greyhound Bus Bathrooms but on City Busses....*

Thats where COVID-25 starts I'll tell ya that!

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by butterfly

I don't know why people are hooked on going to every single home game though. That would take the excitement and joy out of it for me.

This is going to shock you but people have various levels of both excitement AND joy from a plethora of activities and reasons.

[Buzzard]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Urinal troughs are exactly what our city's busses and trains are.

FYP.

Off topic for sure, but why exactly does transit always smell like piss? Like has anyone witnessed a rider pissing in the corner? Or is it from pissy pant riders soaking up the seats?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Buzzard

FYP.

Off topic for sure, but why exactly does transit always smell like piss? Like has anyone witnessed a rider pissing in the corner? Or is it from pissy pant riders soaking up the seats?

We need to get the Edmontonians out of the city

[Roughneck]

There’s not enough urinals & toilets.

As far as the ‘publicly accessible’ toilets, there’s 321 by my count (164 on the Main Concourse and 157 for the Upper Concourse). That’s 10 fewer than the previous design in a smaller building. That’s also less than Rogers Place had before they had to cram more in. There’s 119 Premium & Club level toilets, bringing the total available number up to 440, less than the previous design and also less than Rogers Place. Now this doesn’t take into account the staff area washrooms or ones in the restaurants, but I’d argue that the latter aren’t part of the ‘event’ bathrooms anyway, and the former aren’t publicly available so they don’t get added to the count.
Quite frankly it’s unacceptable.

Now the pressure on the main concourse looks to be somewhat taken off by the more dedicated Club level that services both sides of the lower bowl, but getting a bigger building and losing toilets just doesn’t make sense. Particularly with the cautionary tale up north.

I see some freebies when it comes to more opportunities for relief. The Main Concourse design seems to be very conservative with how many urinals are along the main piss wall (9 when there’s clearly room for 11). I’d also say they need to scrap two toilets and they can get another four urinals in there for a 15 urinal, 3 toilet ratio (vs the 9 and 5 currently in the plan). Given that the Flex Washrooms on the main concourse are clearly meant to be easily converted to Men’s for events as a default, that would add 6 toilets so going with only 3 in the dedicated men's washroom (which was the configuration in the old design) is more than doable for a 15 urinal to 9 toilet ratio on a typical day, and a 15:3 ratio on a women’s-centered event. That’s a conservative increase of 16 units on the Main Concourse. I don’t know the average amount of time at the urinal for people but 90 seconds seems generous which would be an extra 160 people per intermission getting through.

The Upper Concourse has the same number of units as the previous design but went heavy with the Flex options (53 Men, 56 Women, 46 Flex, plus 2 Unisex Singles) which similarly led to poor distribution of toilets and urinals for the men. Similar to the Main Concourse you could probably get a net gain of about 8 units on the Upper Concourse with a better urinal to toilet ratio knowing that there will probably be about 20 toilets available to the men on a typical game day.
So the washroom situation isn’t good.


But looking at the event level and the changes that were made is pretty cool. One thing that stood out was how the much larger and better serviced Family Lounge is setup to overlook the Flames Practice Rink (in the previous design it was crammed into the corner of the Event Level) which definitely adds to the appeal for players with families.

There’s also much better staff areas which is always nice.

[topfiverecords]

Well, building code works out to 51 for men (2/3rds as urinals) and 101 for women so 321 is far and above.

What's Roger's official count? Let's not forget how pissy they are up there.