Israel declares war on Hamas

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Realities in Gaza are terrifying. This is what happens if you let terrorist organization run the country for two decades. Hopefully, Hamas will soon cease to exist and Gaza will be run by whomever is focused on building its own state instead of destroying the neighbouring one.

Yes, genocide and ethnic cleansing is what happens people.

Don't you forget it!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Pointman

There are also 2.1 millions of Palestinian Arabs that live in Israel and are Israel citizens. Some of them even serve in Israel army. That matches the 2M population of Gaza and only trails to 2.9M population of West Bank. Somehow, Palestinians who were born into Israel don't feel the need to revenge whatever atrocities Israel allegedly committed. It's only those Palestinian Arabs, who were born into poverty and propaganda riddled Gaza and West Bank, that can't get over the creation of Israel.


I guess, it is loosely similar to conquest of North America. It wasn't really as simple, as First Nations defending their land against invading Europeans. In reality, various indigenous tribes formed alliances with various European factions and frequently fought alongside Europeans against othe tribes, allied with other Europeans.

But if you look at maps over time, all those First Nations gradually and continuously lost ground over time. Working with the colonizers got them nothing.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

But if you look at maps over time, all those First Nations gradually and continuously lost ground over time. Working with the colonizers got them nothing.

They were also fighting off the Americans, and saw the British as far more consolatory to them that the Americans. I'm not sure how relevant it is to this situation.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I guess, it is loosely similar to conquest of North America. It wasn't really as simple, as First Nations defending their land against invading Europeans. In reality, various indigenous tribes formed alliances with various European factions and frequently fought alongside Europeans against othe tribes, allied with other Europeans.

Your examples are telling. Presenting the indigenous as people who made alliances as if they dreamed up that necessity out of the blue.

How about addressing the fact that an aggressor state appeared and chose violence as their primary means.

That one hits close to home though. Best blank it out so that the ‘blame’ is easier for your psyche to reconcile.

====

Also telling that this example to prove your point is effectively explaining away another instance of genocide and ethnic cleansing. I don’t have to do that when talking to people and explaining my moral stances… ask me why.

[CalgaryKid12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Wrong.


From your second link:



This is illegally occupied territory, not Israel. They have no recognized right to the land, yet they have people occupying it. Israel responded by firing rockets into Lebanon. Who fired on who's territory here?


Right, it's not so simple.

Oh wait, this is very interesting. Are you saying it's ok that Hezbollah fired rockets into said area because it's disputed territory? I thought the consensus is that we were against innocent civilians being casualties due to the actions of a select few extremists? Or are you saying those Israelis aren't innocent because they live on disputed territory? Plz clarify.

I think there's a level of hypocrisy in every single person's points here (including my own), but at the end of the day, the intent of my arguments have been that:
1. I want everyone to be able to live in peace in the region
2. I am against extremism of all kinds
3. I believe Jews have a right to their ancestral homeland and it's never been more important than now (given the points I've eluded to before)
4. Israelis deserve to be safe in their country

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I guess, it is loosely similar to conquest of North America. It wasn't really as simple, as First Nations defending their land against invading Europeans. In reality, various indigenous tribes formed alliances with various European factions and frequently fought alongside Europeans against othe tribes, allied with other Europeans.

Your characterization of Indigenous and European relations in a colonial setting is not based historical research.

For one until the 19th century Europeans, and later colonial governments had very little interest in land based colonial development. This is with exception to a variety of agricultural settlements used for the mass production of Tobacco and Cotton. Where this land based colonialism occurred there were seldom alliances with local Indigenous peoples. Instead there was outright genocide and ecological destruction.

Though you're right there were many, some times competing alliances, but these were never focused on land based conquests. In fact, most corporate ( and therefore government) actors were interested almost exclusively in peace. trade was not as prosperous in times of war. Europeans, at least in an official capacity were never involved directly in Indigenous warfare. Though at times they did work with Indigenous peoples to war among fellow Europeans.

With that in mind, in the 19th century when land based conquest became the national( and colonial priority) there was once again no collaboration, and instead there was genocide. This is characteristic of settler colonialism because these colonial land acquisitions often necessitate the assumption of cultural superiority as a means to displace populations, and to sever genealogical attachments to the land though physical and discursive violence. Indeed Canadians didn't just remove Indigenous peoples from the land, but they also changed the entire ecological system. Just the Same Isreal isn't only removing Palestinian peoples, but they are bombing Gaza into a nearly unrecognizable environment.

[Fuzz]

I didn't say it was OK, I was disputing that Pointman claimed rockets were fired into Israel at that time. They weren't. They were fired into territory Israel is illegally occupying. This changes the picture that innocent Israelis were being attacked, when you could also look at it as invaders being attacked who are on land they have no claim to. Which is part of the larger picture of Israel doing many illegal things, and then claiming they are the victim.


If Israel wants to be treated with fairness and respect, and to have their legitimate grievances backed by the global community, they need to acknowledge and stop their illegal actions that have far less to do with their security, and far more to do with their long term goals of gaining all the land they can in the region. Also, understanding that the creation of Israel, while something great for them, meant extreme losses for others. And that like Canada, they would benefit by coming to terms with the responsibilities that go along with that, and that their actions in the past have created a contingent of people with legitimate grievances. Or not, and we can just watch this happen over and over.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

but at the end of the day, the intent of my arguments have been that:
1. I want everyone to be able to live in peace in the region
2. I am against extremism of all kinds
3. I believe Jews have a right to their ancestral homeland and it's never been more important than now (given the points I've eluded to before)
4. Israelis deserve to be safe in their country

You forgot to add your belief that Israel can do and murder whoever it wants because of the Holocaust.

[Bagor]

Canadian Health Care Workers:
"Israel has killed over 18,000 children. Every university destroyed. Most hospitals destroyed... We unanimously agree: Israel is committing genocide. "

Pointman's response.
Genocide. It happens.

Originally Posted by Pointman

Realities in Gaza are terrifying. This is what happens if you let terrorist organization run the country for two decades

[GullFoss]

https://www.axios.com/2024/11/29/tru...e-hostage-deal

[Looch City]

Getting things done before he's even in power. Now that's how you do it.

Absolutely appalling that Biden hasn't been able to do it, it's like he's not even trying.

Trump comes in, gets it done, stops the killings and we have peace again in the entire region of the middle east. Perhaps for the next couple centuries even.

I'm legit impressed.

[Snuffleupagus]

^^^ did you forget the green text?

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

^^^ did you forget the green text?

It's Looch, the green text is always implied

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by btimbit

It's Looch, the green text is always implied

Ya, you can never take Looch seriously. Not a shot at you Looch! I get a chuckle out of some of your posts.

[Nufy]

I think we all know by now that if something is successful It was all due to Trump regardless of if he was involved.

If things go badly...(even though he was in front of the pack) he had nothing to do with it...didn't know the guy...

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by CalgaryKid12

Oh wait, this is very interesting. Are you saying it's ok that Hezbollah fired rockets into said area because it's disputed territory? I thought the consensus is that we were against innocent civilians being casualties due to the actions of a select few extremists? Or are you saying those Israelis aren't innocent because they live on disputed territory? Plz clarify.

I think there's a level of hypocrisy in every single person's points here (including my own), but at the end of the day, the intent of my arguments have been that:
1. I want everyone to be able to live in peace in the region
2. I am against extremism of all kinds
3. I believe Jews have a right to their ancestral homeland and it's never been more important than now (given the points I've eluded to before)
4. Israelis deserve to be safe in their country

I hope you would agree that statements three and four can be added to and say Palestines have a right to their ancestral homeland and that they deserve to be safe in their country.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Whynotnow

I hope you would agree that statements three and four can be added to and say Palestines have a right to their ancestral homeland and that they deserve to be safe in their country.

As long as they have terrorists as leaders, unlikely they will have peace, with anyone. They have choices and it is time to make good choices. We see clearly the mistakes Lebanon made, and the world made, in refuting Israeli concerns. Now Lebanon paid the price. Same goes with Palestinians. Same story.

Comments like what you just made are weak. Palestinians need to reject their hate and choose peace, or they wont ever have it. They have no right to anything on the path they chose and there is a simple solution. Choose peace, denounce violence and embrace their neighbours. Otherwise continued extremism, hate and whatever other benefits Hamas brings to the table.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

As long as they have terrorists as leaders, unlikely they will have peace, with anyone. They have choices and it is time to make good choices. We see clearly the mistakes Lebanon made, and the world made, in refuting Israeli concerns. Now Lebanon paid the price. Same goes with Palestinians. Same story.

Comments like what you just made are weak. Palestinians need to reject their hate and choose peace, or they wont ever have it. They have no right to anything on the path they chose and there is a simple solution. Choose peace, denounce violence and embrace their neighbours. Otherwise continued extremism, hate and whatever other benefits Hamas brings to the table.

All of this applies to Israelis as well.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

All of this applies to Israelis as well.

how dare you.

[GullFoss]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1863256184658014229

Looking promising imo