Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

This is a funny argument. People who are here illegally shouldn't be here no matter what they are doing.

Now even people on visas, yelling 'death to canada' isn't a crime.

Funny how some people hate free speech when they don’t like the speech.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I don’t know who is an in Canada.

Of all the illegals in Canada, I would like the one deported who are marching on the streets chanting “death to Canada”.

Don’t know what is so difficult to understand about that.

Do you want those specific people to stay in Canada?

You've made an assumption that there are illigals in Canada chanting "death to Canada". Because you made that assumption public, I'm now asking how you know they exist. You didn't say "if there are any". This all seems pretty basic. Do we need remedial conversation lessons here?

[Doctorfever]

Ok.

*if.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Funny how some people hate free speech when they don’t like the speech.

I mean, yeah? I don't support hate speech, incitement to violence, defamation, blackmail, false advertising etc. but I support artistic freedom, freedom of the press, academic freedom etc. I feel like that's the normal and reasonable position.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Ok.

*if.

That was too long of a journey

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Have you guys ever travelled or lived anywhere on a temporary visa?

You act like everyone who has one is a criminal set on breaking the law.

Yes, I lived in the US and had a visa to work there for 2 years.

Even in the US there's not strict enforcement on this scale. Some people who are here as immigrants escaping a much worse living situation elsewhere probably don't even morally view overstaying a visa as breaking the law. Certainly it would be difficult to view it that way in their scenario.

I had something to come back to here. If i didn't, perhaps I would have tried to stay in the US. Certainly millions of people are doing exactly that right now. Why is it such a stretch to imagine they would do it in Canada, too?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The public servants that police the system should enforce it. There must be a database that tracks people here on visas (like where they live and work), and then checks them off when they have exited the county. Then if they don't you send people to deport them? It could be a lot of people, but there must be a system in place for enforcing it. I'm probably being naïve I guess.

And for ones that go on the run, just deny them public services that require government issued identification if they can't produce it. Eventually they will have to visit a clinic, register for school, get employment and nail them then. Granted there will always be some that have a network to live off the grid though.

I don't think you're Naive, it's just not a simple fix. It's not like we can just put people on planes or something, either.

I also wonder if there are pseudo systems set up by local communities to go around this already. Could there be private banking systems/ arrangements that certain communities could operate, for example?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Yes, I lived in the US and had a visa to work there for 2 years.

Even in the US there's not strict enforcement on this scale. Some people who are here as immigrants escaping a much worse living situation elsewhere probably don't even morally view overstaying a visa as breaking the law. Certainly it would be difficult to view it that way in their scenario.

I had something to come back to here. If i didn't, perhaps I would have tried to stay in the US. Certainly millions of people are doing exactly that right now. Why is it such a stretch to imagine they would do it in Canada, too?

Some people do, but not a significant amount because it’s very unpleasant to illegally be in Canada. It basically removes any of the benefits of being in Canada in the first place. Can’t work, can’t access healthcare, can’t access any government supports, etc.

The program Canada has used since 2019 was developed in coordination with the US and they now use the same one.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I don't think you're Naive, it's just not a simple fix. It's not like we can just put people on planes or something, either.

I also wonder if there are pseudo systems set up by local communities to go around this already. Could there be private banking systems/ arrangements that certain communities could operate, for example?

Actually you can, when you find out.

I had a girl work for me who's working visa expired and HR didn't notice until 6 months later! She was reported and on the next plane out.

[Monahammer]

You can't for 4 million people!

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Some people do, but not a significant amount because it’s very unpleasant to illegally be in Canada. It basically removes any of the benefits of being in Canada in the first place. Can’t work, can’t access healthcare, can’t access any government supports, etc.

The program Canada has used since 2019 was developed in coordination with the US and they now use the same one.

I contest some of this. For example, it is likely still better to be in Canada without access to those supports than to be in rural bengal. Especially if you have family/ community supports that you can access here.

[Harry Lime]

'We got completely played for suckers,' MP says of recent takeovers in Canadian forestry

So basically this guy from Indonesia (whose family owns a massive forestry concerns around the world with a horrible record) convinced the government that he was going to be a seperate entity from his family, and set about buying a third of the Canadian industry. Guarantees were made that he couldnt buy any shares in the family business.

But he just inherites the business from Dad. Loophole achieved!

So now, one third of canada forestry is owned by one of the worst foreign national companies (in terms od ethics and environmental concern) in the world. Yay.

https://search.app?link=https%3A%2F%...%2Fgs%2Fm2%2F4

[Winsor_Pilates]

You just have to laugh at things like this now.
They really thought he'd never have association with his father's company?

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

So basically this guy from Indonesia (whose family owns a massive forestry concerns around the world with a horrible record) convinced the government that he was going to be a seperate entity from his family, and set about buying a third of the Canadian industry. Guarantees were made that he couldnt buy any shares in the family business.

But he just inherites the business from Dad. Loophole achieved!

So now, one third of canada forestry is owned by one of the worst foreign national companies (in terms od ethics and environmental concern) in the world. Yay.

https://search.app?link=https%3A%2F%...%2Fgs%2Fm2%2F4

From the article;

Since 2010, Paper Excellence has received hundreds of millions of dollars in federal and provincial loans and subsidies, promising revitalization and jobs in some economically hard-hit communities. But it ultimately closed numerous mills — including in Powell River and Mackenzie, B.C. Espanola, Ont., and Pictou, N.S. The company currently owns more than 30 mills in Canada, the United States, Brazil and France.

Tax dollars wasted.

Unifor, the union that represents an estimated 4,000 of the company's employees, is also concerned by the news that Wijaya is acquiring sole control of Asia Pulp and Paper.

"Wijaya has been consolidating corporate control in the Canadian forestry sector through a series of high-profile acquisitions, while at the same time displaying a troubling lack of transparency and accountability to elected and government officials, forestry workers and local communities," Unifor president Lana Payne said in a statement.

And likely jobs lost.

But at least they are good for the environment. Wait, what???

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Some people do, but not a significant amount because it’s very unpleasant to illegally be in Canada. It basically removes any of the benefits of being in Canada in the first place. Can’t work, can’t access healthcare, can’t access any government supports, etc.

The program Canada has used since 2019 was developed in coordination with the US and they now use the same one.

You can’t work legally. But the underground economy is huge. And nobody gets turned away from emergency health care.

[opendoor]

If significant numbers of lapsed visa holders stayed in Canada, then wouldn't we have a huge population of undocumented workers similar to the US?

Historically, about 75% of temporary work permit holders in Canada (inclusive of Temporary Foreign Workers and the International Mobility Program) have not transitioned to Permanent Residency. So if the vast majority of those people left the country (which would seem to be the case based on estimates of undocumented worker numbers) then why wouldn't the same apply now?

[SebC]

"Our key message to all Domtar executives and employees is that they must at all times act exclusively in the best interests of Domtar and Domtar alone."

Umm what? What about when they're not on the clock? When about when their interests conflict with those of Canada? When they conflict with the environment? Are they not supposed to whistleblow if Domtar is engaging in illegal conduct? Does their employment supersede their agency as individuals with their own interests?

What in the fascist dystopian hell is this?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You can’t work legally. But the underground economy is huge. And nobody gets turned away from emergency health care.

Yes but as Pepsifree says, it would be unpleasant. You have no regular healthcare, no insurance, no driver's license etc...

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I contest some of this. For example, it is likely still better to be in Canada without access to those supports than to be in rural bengal. Especially if you have family/ community supports that you can access here.

Sure, but if you’re going to focus on progressively narrowing examples, aren’t you basically admitting this is a non-issue?

Yes, if there happens to be someone from rural Bengal who has literally nothing to go back to and yet still managed to secure a visa to come here… sure, they may say the risks and drawbacks of living without status are worth the reward of just being in Canada at all.

How many people do you honestly think match that description out of the 4.9 million?

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You can’t work legally. But the underground economy is huge. And nobody gets turned away from emergency health care.

Of course they get emergency health care. And the bill that comes with it.

The underground economy is relatively small (2.7% GDP compared to the US which sits closer to 12%) and while these people can’t find cash work, they lack all of the protections around working conditions and workers rights that everyone else enjoys.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The underground economy is relatively small (2.7% GDP compared to the US which sits closer to 12%)

So, I looked into this because it seems unreasonable. The StatsCan study that produced that figure didn't count drug dealing or prostitution.