American Politics 4.0 - Orangeyou Glad He’s Back?

[InternationalVillager]

.....................

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I'm pretty tuned into that demographic, and they were more engaged, had more lawn signs, were out campaigning and volunteering at polls, etc... than any election since Obama's first election.

Vote is a vote though. An enthusiastic vote for Harris counts the same as an apathetic one. I just don't think you can correlate criticising her campaign, which was no doubt not a good one, with either abstaining or even voting for Trump.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

So it made it a 1v1 and Biden beat Bernie substantially.

There sure are a lot of progressives who like to come in these post loss threads to do an "I told you so" victory lap and relishing the Harris loss.

And yet we're supposed to believe that progressives weren't sitting this election out (or voting Trump) to make a point?

Nobody is relishing. Trump sucks. But a few progressive people did tell people that there were serious issues and instead of listening you specifically threw a temper tantrum and tried to pretend that progressives have never accomplished anything in history.

So, maybe pick a lane, because whining about progressives costing Dems the election after trying to completely dismiss them as unimportant and irrelevant makes you look extremely silly.

[photon]

Inflationary prices are fine, Trump promised to make homelessness illegal and establish tent cities Homeless Rehabilitation Centers for treatment so it'll be fine.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nobody is relishing. Trump sucks. But a few progressive people did tell people that there were serious issues and instead of listening you specifically threw a temper tantrum and tried to pretend that progressives have never accomplished anything in history.

So, maybe pick a lane, because whining about progressives costing Dems the election after trying to completely dismiss them as unimportant and irrelevant makes you look extremely silly.

Where's the temper tantrum? Where did I dismiss progressives as unimportant or irrelevants? I see relishing.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I don't really see relishing. Maybe some "I told you so", but as I said progressives are gonna take it the worst under Trump so I seriously doubt they're relishing this.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Where's the temper tantrum? Where did I dismiss progressives as unimportant or irrelevants? I see relishing.

Here you go

Everything you type is projecting. You are just throwing out insults and tropes with absolutely nothing intelligent to back it up.

Progressives have accomplishing nothing to actually help a single person. But they are sure happy to throw a lot of people under the bus with an end game of leveraging power to influence some ill-conceived pet policies that will likely cause more harm than good. But good for you for keeping up the good fight

Want me to quote more from that little meltdown? The one where you compared progressives to MAGA?

If you’re seeing relishing, quote the posts. But I certainly don’t see any progressives relishing. People are mad the Dems messed this up, and they’re mad because a lot of them knew the problems well ahead of time and were told to shut up about it.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Here you go



Want me to quote more from that little meltdown? The one where you compared progressives to MAGA?

If you’re seeing relishing, quote the posts. But I certainly don’t see any progressives relishing. People are mad the Dems messed this up, and they’re mad because a lot of them knew the problems well ahead of time and were told to shut up about it.

When I say progressives, I am going with the 2016- definition of Bernie supporters/Bernie Bros/Progressives. Prior to 2016, progress was being made. If there is a better name for that group, let me know.

The last couple pages read like "you should have listened to us", or here's a random Tweet showing why we were right. That's fine. But what did or does a winning message to the working class look like?

I've heard more than a couple progressive, white college kids living fairly privileged live say things like "I'm not voting this time around because it doesn't really make any difference to me"

Maybe it is only 4-5 people, or maybe it is a million, but it's not zero, and the common language makes it sound like they are being influenced by someone.

Do those guys care that I had a couple female (one gay) employees call in yesterday morning because they were distraught to show up?

[opendoor]

Exit polls (for what they're worth) don't really show an ideological connection to reduced voting numbers for Democrats. They suggest that the reduced turnout was fairly broad based.

Obviously self-described labels are far from perfect (i.e. many strongly conservative people consider themselves "moderates"). But based on the numbers, as a percentage of her total votes, Harris received basically identical support from self-described liberals and moderates as what Biden got. The difference was, Biden did much better among self-described conservatives, which pushed his total vote share 2 points higher.

You can probably draw a few things from that:

1) It wasn't necessarily 10-15 million (or whatever) Biden voters staying home and Trump just getting the same voters. More likely, a fair number of 2020 Trump voters stayed home too, but the more conservative Biden supporters shifted towards Trump.

2) Harris' attempt to court Republicans look even dumber and less effective. Without being nearly as explicit and pandering, Obama, Clinton, and Biden got about 15-16% of self-described conservatives; Harris only managed 9%.

3) Given the above 2 points, unfortunately the lesson they'll probably take (and it might even be the right one) is that they need to capture more self-described conservatives.

[GGG]

I’d argue polling access is what led to lower turn out. Someone would need to do the analysis but a lot of areas became more restrictive

List of laws to restrict or enhance early voting

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...september-2024

Since the 2013 Supreme Court ruling softening the voting rights act 1 in 5 polling locations have closed

https://abcnews.go.com/US/protecting...y?id=114990347

Relative to 2020 it was more difficult to vote.

If you look at Michigan total number of votes increased. They expanded early voting options.

But keep in mind that only about 92% of the vote has been counted so the actual difference is only about 2 million out of 154 million votes.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Dems needed to hammer the immigration (i.e border) issue better. They had a border bill, the Republicans stymied it so they could use the border as an issue in the election.

They didnt push that (maybe fearing the border wasnt an issue their supporters wanted to talk about?) to their detriment.

I know a lot of people were commenting that the Dems were playing the abortion debate too hard. I figured there was some stats to back up how well that would play (like state votes on these). For whatever reason that didn't work like they thought it would

That is pretty simple

Say what you will, abortion was ‘returned to the states’ and many states had it on their ballots

Pretty easy for a voter to vote for either candidate and feel like they can state their position on abortion

They were as dumb in this as they were on inflation

[Hockey_Ninja]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1854624530150359061

Two women who were more than qualified lost to a 34 time convicted felon. A guy who has credible r*** charges. A guy who's the only president to be impeached twice. A guy who did a horrid job responding to COVID and had his own supporters drinking bleach and taking horse dewormer to try to fight off the virus. A guy who caused an insurrection to try to pull off a false electorate scheme to flip the results of the last election. A guy who clearly has Putin in his back pocket. It just doesn't make sense to me man. Yeah the inflation was bad but the US has been managing it the best of the G7 countries and unemployment is at an all-time low and wages have gone up. There's still issues with price gouging, but the data clearly shows the economy is moving in the right direction. And you just know Trump is gonna take credit for the good domestic policies Biden and his administration were able to pass. That is before he undoes it with his tariffs and mass deportations and other dumb #### that I'm sure his team has cooking up

I've just come to the conclusion that a lot of people have become more bigoted, uninformed, purposely ignorant, or they just wanted a change because they didn't like the inflation and remembered how good the economy was before COVID hit (something that Trump inherited from Obama btw). If I can give Trump credit for anything is that he's definitely charismatic and memeable. I think he has no substance at all and is often incoherent, but he has a way of communicating that makes people trust him and believe in him. He is a business man after all, you gotta be able to sell yourself to make it in business and he keeps it simple and attacks his opponents and people buy it. He's built a big cult from it. And unfortunately, I think we have to suffer in order for people to realize what they've done voting for this man to come back

He doesn't actually care about us. He only cares about himself. He believes he should be above the law. He believes he should be a king and not have to face any consequences. There's a reason why most of his old team is gone. There's a reason why people who were once close to him have said he's admired dictators and is a fascist. And he has all the branches of government in the palms of his hands. This is gonna be a crazy ride

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

https://twitter.com/user/status/1854624530150359061

Two women who were more than qualified lost to a 34 time convicted felon. A guy who has credible r*** charges. A guy who's the only president to be impeached twice. A guy who did a horrid job responding to COVID and had his own supporters drinking bleach and taking horse dewormer to try to fight off the virus. A guy who caused an insurrection to try to pull off a false electorate scheme to flip the results of the last election. A guy who clearly has Putin in his back pocket. It just doesn't make sense to me man. Yeah the inflation was bad but the US has been managing it the best of the G7 countries and unemployment is at an all-time low and wages have gone up. There's still issues with price gouging, but the data clearly shows the economy is moving in the right direction. And you just know Trump is gonna take credit for the good domestic policies Biden and his administration were able to pass. That is before he undoes it with his tariffs and mass deportations and other dumb #### that I'm sure his team has cooking up

I've just come to the conclusion that a lot of people have become more bigoted, uninformed, purposely ignorant, or they just wanted a change because they didn't like the inflation and remembered how good the economy was before COVID hit (something that Trump inherited from Obama btw). If I can give Trump credit for anything is that he's definitely charismatic and memeable. I think he has no substance at all and is often incoherent, but he has a way of communicating that makes people trust him and believe in him. He is a business man after all, you gotta be able to sell yourself to make it in business and he keeps it simple and attacks his opponents and people buy it. He's built a big cult from it. And unfortunately, I think we have to suffer in order for people to realize what they've done voting for this man to come back

He doesn't actually care about us. He only cares about himself. He believes he should be above the law. He believes he should be a king and not have to face any consequences. There's a reason why most of his old team is gone. There's a reason why people who were once close to him have said he's admired dictators and is a fascist. And he has all the branches of government in the palms of his hands. This is gonna be a crazy ride

Good luck, the economic blow back to Canada is going to be grim but it won't come close to what you are going to feel

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by GGG

I’d argue polling access is what led to lower turn out. Someone would need to do the analysis but a lot of areas became more restrictive

List of laws to restrict or enhance early voting

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...september-2024

Since the 2013 Supreme Court ruling softening the voting rights act 1 in 5 polling locations have closed

https://abcnews.go.com/US/protecting...y?id=114990347

Relative to 2020 it was more difficult to vote.

If you look at Michigan total number of votes increased. They expanded early voting options.

But keep in mind that only about 92% of the vote has been counted so the actual difference is only about 2 million out of 154 million votes.

In terms of total vote, I haven't looked at breakdown between early and election day, the numbers are up in Georgia and North Carolina which are often talked about as states that are trying to become the most restrictive. Iowa and Florida, another two states often discussed, were essentially flat between 2020 and 2024. In Georgia and NC, Harris did better than Biden and in Iowa it was basically flat. Harris significantly underperformed Biden in Florida and I don't know if that is rules based or just because of the candidate.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I see relishing.

I agree with what you're saying. I've been trying to stay away from this thread to let the temperature settle down and some of the emotion burn off. The progressive left made a conscious decision to not vote (again) and that really hurt the Dems (wasn't the only reason, but was a big reason). They aren't taking responsibility for this action but are instead trying to dunk on the Dems for not going full Thelma and Louise and driving the whole party off the cliff to appease them. It's bizarre, but they don't understand politics nor their own actions. They put themselves and their vote above everyone else and that ultimately hurts them more than if they actually engaged the process and understood they have to make compromise to move the needle in their direction.

Also, that's the MO of the individual you're arguing with. They will take a position counter to yours to argue, then argue like they are right without proof or substance, and then constantly try to dunk on you for things you haven't said or they have twisted out of context. Their tactics are extremely Trumpian in nature actually. Project, deny, deflect, but bring nothing of substance to defend their claims. Difficult to have a have a rational conversation with and impossible to debate with because the rules they demand you comply with seemingly don't apply to them. Put them on ignore. You won't see their stupid posts, you won't want to engage them, the board will be easier to read, and your life will be better.

Originally Posted by nfotiu

The last couple pages read like "you should have listened to us", or here's a random Tweet showing why we were right. That's fine. But what did or does a winning message to the working class look like?

They don't know and they can't tell you. They are going to tell what their frame says, but it is not representative of the values or concerns of Americans. Therein lies the problem. Understanding the American mentality and trying to appeal to it.

I've heard more than a couple progressive, white college kids living fairly privileged live say things like "I'm not voting this time around because it doesn't really make any difference to me"

Maybe it is only 4-5 people, or maybe it is a million, but it's not zero, and the common language makes it sound like they are being influenced by someone.

You're going to get hit with an argument that is isolated and only from where you live, that is not indicative of the whole country. Except that it is. The same things were heard on college campuses across the country.

Do those guys care that I had a couple female (one gay) employees call in yesterday morning because they were distraught to show up?

No, they don't. Americans are too self-centered to think about the impact of their decisions on others. It's the same thing with "progressives". They don't understand, nor care, what their self-centered thinking or actions have on the larger population around them. They only want their way.

Originally Posted by GGG

I’d argue polling access is what led to lower turn out. Someone would need to do the analysis but a lot of areas became more restrictive.

This is a great point. Access to voting in many urban areas is greatly limited, especially in areas where minorities cast their ballots. If they want to vote they have wait in long lines (hours at a time) or travel to a polling station that make voting difficult. It is all part of the larger voter suppression plan and it continues to prove to be effective.

There was a lot that lead to depressed voter turn out, but I think you hit on one of the long standing issues. I think people were also impacted by the polling data that was out, not understanding that polling data was manipulated, and it made them feel like their vote wouldn't matter. The propaganda that circulated this campaign was some of the worst and most dishonest I have even seen, and with an uneducated electorate that disinformation was also very effective in confusing the vote. IMO, there needs to be election laws that prevent the creation and use of PACs, especially those that spread lies about issues or candidates. All of this just drives people away from voting rather than to the polls. The US system is broken.

[Ozy_Flame]

I am getting vibes that this might be the "backed into a corner" phase of American politics where alot - I mean, a lot - of inward looking is going to happen for Democrats, progressives, and even some Republicans. I get the sense from various groups and communities that this 2nd Trump term may actually galvanize people to organize, act, and give a #### about things beyond their own fiefdoms.

I am aware this is a very high level sentiment, and the next four years are going to be significant for many and downright oppresives for others, but when your back is against the wall and you begin to lose a sense of control is when human determinism really kicks in.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

given a finite amount of resources endless growth isn’t a good model.

That's one factor. Another question is what do we want our global weight to be. If we want to be important, to have big influence in the world, we need to grow.

[woob]

How does Election reform get tackled in the US? Neither party wants to tackle it, but it's very evident it needs to be addressed. Or is it a lost cause if SCOTUS is essentially the Republican law maker at this point?

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by woob

How does Election reform get tackled in the US? Neither party wants to tackle it, but it's very evident it needs to be addressed. Or is it a lost cause if SCOTUS is essentially the Republican law maker at this point?

What’s very evident that needs to be changed?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by woob

How does Election reform get tackled in the US? Neither party wants to tackle it, but it's very evident it needs to be addressed. Or is it a lost cause if SCOTUS is essentially the Republican law maker at this point?

Vote in a guy who’s going to do away with elections all together. Problem solved.