Justice for an idiot driver

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What are you talking about the distance between the EB/WB lanes? Before I jump all over this I want to be sure that you are sayin there isn't enough room between the two lanes. Is that what you are saying?

Yes, as in the grass median that has no barriers... this is what I've been told by a Civie.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Frankster

Maybe most of the drivers are comfortable doing 30k over the speedlimit, but I would much rather have someone doing the speedlimit (even if it slows traffic), if they are not comfortable doing 30k over. They are much more dangerous doing a speed that they can't handle than slowing some of the traffic.

And lets not forget that going over the posted speedlimit is illegal. It is irrational to get mad at ANY driver for not speeding - as long as they are going near the speedlimit.

I also heard from an old cop friend of mine that it's illegal to go more than 10km/hr under the speedlimit under ideal conditions - they are just as dangerous as the people speeding.

The perception that slower drivers are more dangerous is absurd...it is two wrongs that don't make a right. The person doing 10k under the speedlimit is no more atfault than the vehicle that feels the need to jump out of that lane and into another lane dangerously. Remember - no one forces you to make any decision. You are always in charge, you just made a bad choice in this instance...

Ok, you might want to read what I said...I didn't say speeding wasn't illegal, I didn't say that people should speed, I did not say that people should drive faster than what they are comforatable with. I simple said the safest combination of driving is when everyone is doing the same speed.....no more....no less.

And your little statement that slower drivers are more dangerous is absurd.....wrong. You have traffic that is moving at 110 and you have a little old lady doing 80-85 because she is not comforatable driving the speed limit....they are just as dangerous to EVERYONE on the road as speeders.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Yes, as in the grass median that has no barriers... this is what I've been told by a Civie.

Good lord man...you have no clue then. There are some meridians on QE2 that have only a car length between the two highways and there is no change in speed at all. The road between Lethrbidge and Coaldale has ample space to allow 110.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Good lord man...you have no clue then. There are some meridians on QE2 that have only a car length between the two highways and there is no change in speed at all. The road between Lethrbidge and Coaldale has ample space to allow 110.

Good lord?... and the Professional Civil Engineer didn't know what he was talking about either eh? Not every highway is the same. Thanks for bringing out the personal attack.

[lifer]

Deer are not static. They feed near highway ditches at dusk. They move in herds and there movements are affected by many factors including food supply, predator proximity, water proximity, time of year, and other environmental factors. It is impossible to say whether one person would see more or less animals.

If the car traveling 100km/h passes a herd of 8 animals at castle mountain and spooks them back into the woods, the car traveling 10 km/h then passes the same spot and sees no animals because the continued further into the valley to graze and both cars see no deer all the way to Golden, what of your theory?

You make too many assumptions. What happens at a given point is variable over time. Because they are traveling at different rates they reach a point at different times. The time difference allows for a number of things to happen.


can you not think in averages? Lots of averages are based on the occurance of random events. Think of this: if you did a study watching a stretch of road over the course of 2 years. You alternate your observation patterns daily for 2 conditions. The first condition is that you watch that stretch for 10 minutes a day, we'll call this the fast condition, and you watch the same stretch for 100 minutes on every other day, we'll call this the slow condition. Do you not think that over the course of 730 days that a patter? would emerge where you see more deer on an average "slow day" or an average "fast day"? Give me a break. I used this analogy earlier, and it wasn't responded to. If you look up at night from the roof of your house for 20 minutes and count shooting stars, are you likely to see more or less shooting stars than your wife who was up there for a full hour the night before? The guy driving 100 km an hour happens to see a herd of 8 deer and scared them away. Thats fine, there are more than 8 deer along the way, and if you spend more time in the same environment you are more likely to see them? You seriously disagree with that? Lets say you can see 100 meters ahead of you to west, and then the road curves and all you can see is a wall of trees. If you are looking at that 100 meter stretch of road for 6 seconds are you more or less likely to see a deer than if you are on that stretch for 60 seconds? This is common sense isn't it? Come on people...do I really need to go pick up some prescription medication for myself?

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Good lord man...you have no clue then. There are some meridians on QE2 that have only a car length between the two highways and there is no change in speed at all. The road between Lethrbidge and Coaldale has ample space to allow 110.

No, you have no clue. There are design specifications for the width of a median for a given design speed. Perhaps these specs are violated in places, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

The curve on Eastbound #1 just outside of Deadman's Flats is a little too sharp for the engineers' liking, but they can't make it a shallower curve because it would put it too close to the Westbound lanes.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Good lord?... and the Professional Civil Engineer didn't know what he was talking about either eh? Not every highway is the same. Thanks for bringing out the personal attack.

Where is the personal attack??? All I said was good lord man..... Honestly, I thought that you might have known what you were talking about and that is why I asked you to clarify your statement. When you clarified your statement....you showed me you didn't know what you were talking about. Plain and simple. It is nothing personal.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

No, you have no clue. There are design specifications for the width of a median for a given design speed. Perhaps these specs are violated in places, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

The curve on Eastbound #1 just outside of Deadman's Flats is a little too sharp for the engineers' liking, but they can't make it a shallower curve because it would put it too close to the Westbound lanes.

Thanks for that....I didn't know they designed the highways for certain speeds

No where did I say that design specs don't exist....no where did I say that....but go ahead and make it seem like I did say that....

The fact is archer was trying to say the highway is not designed to be travelled at 110. Fine.....the engineers wanted people to drive at 100...doesn't mean that they cannot drive at 110 with no problems what so ever. QE2 was not designed to be travelled at 110 but it is because it is safe to do so.

Archers arguement was that there is not enough room between the alternating lanes. If that is the case then large portions of QE2 should not be travelled at 110 especially many sections between red deer and calgary.

[REDVAN]

The civil engineers who design the road speed limit are people like anyone else. I am close with a bunch of civil engineers who design roads as a matter of fact, and let me say that yes they do cater the roads to the dumbest driver. A quote I hear from them often is "the average driver is quite stupid."

So consider that before thinking they design roads well. Plus, they are just like any other profession- sometimes you get gifted ones, sometimes you get decent ones, and sometimes you get people who don't know anything. Imagine if the dummy designs the road speed!?

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Where is the personal attack???

You said I have no clue. I take that personally.


For anyone interested in why a highway is designed as it is, and how speed is chosen, go here:

http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFT...ion/rds007.htm

Specifically chapter A14.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

You said I have no clue. I take that personally.


For anyone interested in why a highway is designed as it is, and how speed is chosen, go here:

http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFT...ion/rds007.htm

Specifically chapter A14.

Well I am sorry, it is not ment to be personal.

You still haven't told me why it is ok to travel 110 on QE2 with a meridian of half the size as highway 3 between coaldale and lethrbidge yet it is to dangerous to travel 110 on that highway.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

The civil engineers who design the road speed limit are people like anyone else. I am close with a bunch of civil engineers who design roads as a matter of fact, and let me say that yes they do cater the roads to the dumbest driver. A quote I hear from them often is "the average driver is quite stupid."

So consider that before thinking they design roads well. Plus, they are just like any other profession- sometimes you get gifted ones, sometimes you get decent ones, and sometimes you get people who don't know anything. Imagine if the dummy designs the road speed!?

Like I said, lowest common denominator.


And another thing... I think that alot of these roads and limits were designed and studied years ago. Incase nobody has noticed, cars have improved drastically in handling, safety, stopping and visibility.

Time to stop mollycoddling to the insecure strugglers, and set some decent speed limits.

(Did I just say mollycoddle? I guess I've been hanging around the quilting forum too much.)

[jolinar of malkshor]

Thanks for the link archer.....it proves my point

Consequently, the normal speed limit on the finished
roadway is an important consideration in selection of
design speed. It is desirable that the design speed
exceed the normal speed limit by a margin of at least
10 km/h. For example, because the normal speed
limit on two-lane highways will be 100 km/h when
paved, the appropriate design speed is 110 km/h.
On rural expressways, the normal speed limit is 110
km/h and it is conceivable that the normal speed
limit may be increased further at the time of freeway
completion. Consequently, a design speed of 130
km/h is considered appropriate for future freeway
facilities. The 130 km/h design speed should also be
used on undivided highways if they form part of a

future freeway.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Well I am sorry, it is not ment to be personal.

You still haven't told me why it is ok to travel 110 on QE2 with a meridian of half the size as highway 3 between coaldale and lethrbidge yet it is to dangerous to travel 110 on that highway.

Don't know, that's all I was told was the reason for it. That came from two different Civil Engineers as well. I could come up with something, but it would be pure speculation on my part.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Thanks for the link archer.....it proves my point

snip

It does, it also proves mine. You were saying speed limits change, I'm saying they design for a certain max speed in mind.... we really aren't arguing the same point here.

[Bobblehead]

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

The civil engineers who design the road speed limit are people like anyone else. I am close with a bunch of civil engineers who design roads as a matter of fact, and let me say that yes they do cater the roads to the dumbest driver. A quote I hear from them often is "the average driver is quite stupid."

So consider that before thinking they design roads well. Plus, they are just like any other profession- sometimes you get gifted ones, sometimes you get decent ones, and sometimes you get people who don't know anything. Imagine if the dummy designs the road speed!?

They collect their paycheque designing roads, or they get their grades designing roads?

As Jolinkar and Fotze just said, there is a reasonable amount of variance based on the speed limit posted (i.e. safety factor), but 10kph variance is not that much.

+/- 10kph is not very much of a difference on a highway that has a posted limit of 100kph... I don't think very many people in this forum would call that speeding, in fact. Who is more of a problem driver - the person going 10kph over on deerfoot, or the one going 30-40kph over on deerfoot? Who here has come around the bend on Southbound deerfoot around 17th Ave SE only to have traffic go to a standstill in what seems like a matter of seconds?

I find it odd that we are sitting here debating a +/- 10kph difference when I think we can all agree that such a number is not the problem - unless we are looking at residential roadways.

If, for example, our good friend REDVAN here (an admitted speed junky ) goes 10 clicks over on deerfoot on our left hand side, most of us wouldn't blink - yet if he did the same thing on a side street in our neighbourhood, we would be calling in his license plate.

The point is that design is a moving target - any engineer and most laypeople can understand that. Speeding tests the limit of that design point because there is a certain limit where a driver begins to exceed their ability to react to what is occurring on the road, turning themselves into a threat to all involved.

I think what people are trying to discern here is just how much speeding is safe? Like I said - 10kph over the limit on a highway is probably safe for your average driver, but people who tend to speed do not stick to that, they will go much faster.

[GrrlGoalie33]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ok, you might want to read what I said...I didn't say speeding wasn't illegal, I didn't say that people should speed, I did not say that people should drive faster than what they are comforatable with. I simple said the safest combination of driving is when everyone is doing the same speed.....no more....no less.

And your little statement that slower drivers are more dangerous is absurd.....wrong. You have traffic that is moving at 110 and you have a little old lady doing 80-85 because she is not comforatable driving the speed limit....they are just as dangerous to EVERYONE on the road as speeders.

First off...my post was not meant as a direct post to anything you said...if it was, I would have quoted you. Secondly, I don't think you fully understood what I said.

My example used people doing 30km/hr OVER the speedlimit and people driving the speedlimit. Some people are not comfortable doing more than the speedlimit, but should not be penalized for doing so. I also did not say that slower drivers were more dangerous...I said both the speeders and the below the speedlimit cars are equally at fault.

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

They collect their paycheque designing roads, or they get their grades designing roads?

They collect their paycheques, I am not talking about students here. BUT I also know some students as well.

I agree that roads are designed for at least 10 km/h more than the speed limit, and I agree that the speed limit is set for the "lowest common denominator." The lowest person may be because of their driving skill or even vehcile capabilities. For example, just because new cars can handle 120 on Deerfoot doesn't mean a 30 year old truck can. You can't force people to upgrade their vehicles, so the rest of us have to cater down low.

But those of us who have newer vehicles and are able to drive faster on the roads should be allowed to do so without fearing the wrath of the other drivers, especially when it's safe for us to do so. That is what I do, I drive how fast I want to drive, and as long as it's safe the slower drivers shoulnd't be bothered by it.

P.S. Yes I am a speed junkie, that is a good way of putting it!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Frankster

First off...my post was not meant as a direct post to anything you said...if it was, I would have quoted you.

Oh sorry....my bad...I could have sworn you quoted me. Oh ya, thats right....you did!