[Rumour] Instead of trading for right shot centres, here’s some 2025 draft ones

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by looooob

I know what we shouldn't do...


https://thehockeywriters.com/maple-l...e-david-kampf/


(I think they forget which team BT is GM'ing)

Flames looking for a young, right-shot C that fits their age window (23 and under)...

Jim Parsons: "Flames no longer in rebuild mode, want to add to the team now - how about 29 YO, left-shot C, David Kampf?"

What a ####ing moron

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Flames looking for a young, right-shot C that fits their age window (23 and under)...

Jim Parsons: "Flames no longer in rebuild mode, want to add to the team now - how about 29 YO, left-shot C, David Kampf?"

What a ####ing moron

lmao, Kampf is five games into a four year contract Treliving just gave him. You can keep The Wizards magic, Toronto.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Why have some of you forgotten that amidst a tiny four game winning streak. Drafting and developing is the most consistant form of building a winner in this league...

That's not what I see happening. Rather, I see a number of posters reacting to the insinuation that if the team fails to draft in the top-five this season, they are doomed. I see reactions to the thought that a high draft pick needs to be prioritised at all costs.


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[BigThief]

High draft picks should be our #1 priority.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by BigThief

High draft picks should be our #1 priority.

That's how Buffalo got where they are today.

Building a team that can win is the #1 priority. High draft picks are only a means to an end. They are not the only means, they're not sufficient in themselves, and if you sacrifice the other elements for their sake, you end up with garbage.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

It not only makes sense, it is the ONLY WAY

Which way to the koolaid line?

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That's how Buffalo got where they are today.

Building a team that can win is the #1 priority. High draft picks are only a means to an end. They are not the only means, they're not sufficient in themselves, and if you sacrifice the other elements for their sake, you end up with garbage.

Anyone that Buffalo's picked high (1st 2nd overall) has been gold. Reinhart, Eichel, Dahlin and now Owen Power. It's not drafting high that's been Buffalo's problem, it was building a team around those foundational players.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Which way to the koolaid line?

I guess you didn’t read the first iteration of this conversation
I’m being facetious
There are some who absolutely believe this

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Anyone that Buffalo's picked high (1st 2nd overall) has been gold. Reinhart, Eichel, Dahlin and now Owen Power. It's not drafting high that's been Buffalo's problem, it was building a team around those foundational players.

Exactly. Drafting high wasn't Buffalo's problem. But it certainly wasn't the solution some posters are cracking it up to be.

Edmonton drafted #1 overall three consecutive years and ended up with garbage. They got insanely lucky with their fourth #1OA pick, but even that didn't get them where they were promising the fans they would go.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by BigThief

High draft picks should be our #1 priority.

Not at all costs, it shouldn't.

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[Calgary4LIfe]

I think a lot of worry for nothing at this point. I get the OP's angst. I also get the backlash against that too.


I personally just think that the Flames aren't in a position to start filling holes yet. I would simply rather just ride this season out without spending any assets on players, even younger players that can fill a need long term. If something good falls into Conroy's lap, or it is a player(s)-for-player(s) trade rather than futures, then even better. Flames have a lot of extra bodies after all.





All I am doing is enjoying the wins. Things can snowball positively into a surprise season. That's fine. Wins are much more fun than losses, but if this team nosedives at some point this season, that's fine too. Just be entertaining. Thus far, they are very entertaining to watch.


As for whatever 'model' that Conroy wants to do, I do believe that we are in a rebuild. The "Dallas Model" that everyone wants to point at was a rebuild. It just wasn't a scorched-earth tear down. I think essentially there are 3 ways to win a cup, and there are 3 examples probably for each:


1) Scorched-Earth. This is what many fans assume will happen when the word rebuild pops up on their radar. Sell everything that you can, and intentionally be bad enough to draft high. Simple. Some success stories: Pittsburgh (both Lemieux era and the Crosby era - they both resulted in multiple cups), Chicago (after a failed 1st scorched earth, but also an owner who didn't care), Colorado (Burke specifically referenced Colorado as a team that intentionally tanked and helped change the rules). There are others - many others. Lots of fails too - we are seeing Buffalo still struggling. Arizona for a long time. Conroy has stated that he doesn't want to go this way because he doesn't think a team can flip a switch from being ok with losing, back to winning. I think that there are too many good and bad examples for this to be a rule worth worrying about.


2) Rebuild - I believe this is the path that the Flames are on now. Edmonton didn't want to rebuild until they fell on their face. Even after getting Hall, remember what Katz said? "This is the last time this will happen" (LoL). They picked high out of pure failure. However, they did rebuild. Some good examples here: Tampa, L.A., Boston. Some failures: Edmonton (LOL, if not for a fluke McDavid landing in their laps, they would be the worst team in professional sports), Carolina (it feels like they are back down, doesn't it?), Toronto (I argue they never really tore it down into a scorched earth rebuild, and it feels like they are back on their way down too).



3) Screw rebuild, we just keep on winning! I think the poster boy for this group is the Islanders. Success stories? St. Louis? They did have a couple of down years, but that team just competed and competed no matter who was in the lineup. I thought that they were in for a long rebuild, but they are trying to compete again. Philadelphia feels right here - though I do think they have turned into a more patient tradtional rebuild. They pivoted quickly off of the Richards/Jeff Carter era. They have essentially never rebuilt since the mid 90's, and have been a bubble team from their last Stanley Cup Finals season in 2010 until their rebuild in the last few seasons.



I think the conclusion that I draw from 'successes' to 'failures' between these groups (and they aren't easy to define - exactly how many vets do you trade before you are in a rebuild vs scorched earth? etc) comes down to two easily identifiable sub-groups for each:


1) Well-managed organizations
2) ####-shows


This is why I wanted Conroy over any other candidate. He has been here under 3 GMs and from seeing a team needing a rebuild, entering a rebuild, and then actually rebuilding and trying to compete again. I don't want to kick Treliving in the nuts here, but his tenure was an abject failure from a competing standpoint. The Flames never ended up competing under his watch, plain and simple, and whether you like Treliving and constantly defend him, or you hate him and sling mud at him at every turn, there is no denying that the Flames under Treliving never turned into competitors. They had a mirage of that for 2 seasons, but in those 9 seasons, the Flames never reached the Cup Finals or even the third round (or even win more than a single game from the 2nd round, or even make the playoffs consistently). Point I am making is that Conroy was here for that, was in on all the conversations behind closed doors, the deals that happened, the ones that didn't, the good decisions and the bad decisions made. He worked in every facet of this organization, and put in his dues to learn how to be a proper GM.


How has that panned out thus far? I argue that last season was a damn master-class of GM'ing. Coming in under HEAVY scrutiny and pressure? Having to hire a coach (and he made a fantastic hire IMO), deal with a media frenzy of "everyone wants out of Calgary!", dealing with players who were only interested in staying if they were heavily overpaid, making more trades in a season than any GM ever does, getting good value for Hanifin even though the agent was going around nefariously to other organizations, having Zadorov 'surprise' Conroy with a trade demand timed for a visit in Toronto, etc. How he didn't flinch on the Markstrom situation even after it got leaked out in the media and Markstrom made it known that he was not happy.



To extract those assets in light of last season? Pure masterclass. Only fools don't rate his work up until this point as an A+, in my not so humble opinion.


So, if Conroy feels that this team should look for a RHS centre, then that's fine. He has earned it. It doesn't mean that the Flames have transitioned to winning. That's a lot of cap room for a competing team. Would make quite the story if the Flames find themselves in the SCFs this year (and that would be fantastic, wouldn't it??).



Who knows what this is. Maybe they are looking. Maybe they leaked this out to drive the price on another team. Maybe they want to put the pressure on Pospisil to continue working hard on his faceoffs. LoL Conroy has said the same thing last season - that he would like to acquire a young RHS centre. I don't think that this is anything new, really, and I wouldn't be surprised if nothing transpires until the trade deadline at the earliest, if at all. If it happens soon, then that's ok too - I trust Conroy here. I think he has earned the trust of us by now, right?


This is all about entertainment. Flames are damn entertaining right now. I feel Conroy is a good GM, and Huska is a great coach, and the drafting and development team are top-notch. Win or lose, this is a fantastic season. If the Flames nosedive, that's ok - keep playing the way they are.


I remember the standing ovations in the 2013-14 season in which they competed their butts off, but still lost, and got a round of applause after many of their losses. Anyone else remember that? Just play hard, be fun to watch, and whatever happens, will happen.


Flames have been a poorly managed team for too long. Fletcher was fantastic (though, in fairness, it took him over a decade to start being really good, but he became amazing). I think Coates is way underrated here for the work that he has done under terrible circumstances. Sutter was fantastic for the first half of his tenure, but the last few years turned into a bit of a circus. Feaster was a circus. Burke brought some respectability back, but the interim tag and duration stops me from formulating much of an opinion. Treliving was solid with media perception until the very end when it suddenly became a circus again, but without actually ever competing and constantly mismanaging assets and cap space, I have to rate him under the continuation of the mismanagement that endured here.


Thus far, Conroy has not mismanaged this team. Until he does, I will give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to rumours, and instead will look for actual mistakes. The only mistake I see thus far is Okhotiuk, but since the Flames still retain his rights, maybe this will end up being a decent move down the line (though it seems he will never return at this point). That's a pretty small mistake, especially when you compare it to the series of moves he already has made.


Get a centre, or don't - I think the fit and the price will dictate that. Also, maybe he uses existing players (of which the Flames have a few extras of) to make the trade, rather than using up some of the draft picks he accrued thus far. That makes it even better. Just wait for something to actually happen before complaining too negatively, or celebrating prematurely. I just give Conroy the benefit of the doubt so far, and I am simply enjoying the games again.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Number 39

One thing I do wonder about re: drafting centres. I feel like in the last while when the Flames develop a centre they have had a habit of breaking them in on the wing and it rarely happens that they eventually move to centre.

It always seems to be a struggle for the organization to allow a centre to break in as a centre. I realize that this has been a combination at various times of centre depth blocking prospects or the perceived need to break in on the wing w fewer responsibilities.

I just hope when they do draft a few higher end centres they let them break in as centres for a change. I have no evidence but I don’t feel like other organizations are as cautious in this approach.

The list is small that a drafted C starts in the NHL that way.

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Flames looking for a young, right-shot C that fits their age window (23 and under)...

Jim Parsons: "Flames no longer in rebuild mode, want to add to the team now - how about 29 YO, left-shot C, David Kampf?"

What a ####ing moron

He can be Their Kampf, not Mein Kampf.

[bigrangy]

I was slightly surprised by this.

Filter Right handed, centers, 26 or younger, finished the ELC, making more than league min. There's only 10 guys league wide.

Obviously they're not trading for Suzuki/Tage Thompson/Thomas.

So there's Cozens/Pinto/Kunin/Geekie/Dellandrea/Kupari/Kastelic left over. Doubt that Cozens/Pinto are available for a good price, doubt Boston/Winnipeg wants to move Geekie/Kastelic/Kupari, so that would leave either Kunin or Dellandrea (both Sharks) as the target if they want a young ish RH center who can take minutes today.

Both were just signed this summer by SJ as well.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That's how Buffalo got where they are today.

Building a team that can win is the #1 priority. High draft picks are only a means to an end. They are not the only means, they're not sufficient in themselves, and if you sacrifice the other elements for their sake, you end up with garbage.

No it's not.

Buffalo got to where they are by being a garbage organization that can't hire good GMs, good Coaches, or adequate medical staff.

[Jay Random]

Out of a brilliant post, the only bit I would quibble with is this:

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

The only mistake I see thus far is Okhotiuk, but since the Flames still retain his rights, maybe this will end up being a decent move down the line (though it seems he will never return at this point).

It's pretty clear what Conroy was doing. He was accumulating a whole bunch of young(ish) defencemen, replenishing the team's depth at a position where they had just traded three of their top 5 (and then saw Kylington walk). He knew not every acquisition was going to be a success, but he threw lots of darts and scored a couple of bullseyes. Okhotiuk was that weird dart that bounces off the wire frame between numbers instead of sticking in the dartboard. I don't call that a mistake, just a low-risk gamble that didn't happen to pan out.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

No it's not.

Buffalo got to where they are by being a garbage organization that can't hire good GMs, good Coaches, or adequate medical staff.

Right. That's exactly what I'm going on about. They got there by picking high in the draft and doing nothing else right. That's why picking high isn't a strategy. Even if you could do it at will (which you can't), it doesn't begin to be enough.

People who want to deliberately wreck the team in order to finish dead last are asking to run the organization like Buffalo. They are willing to build a deliberate culture of losing and screwing up in the hope of failing their way to success.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Right. That's exactly what I'm going on about. They got there by picking high in the draft and doing nothing else right. That's why picking high isn't a strategy. Even if you could do it at will (which you can't), it doesn't begin to be enough.

People who want to deliberately wreck the team in order to finish dead last are asking to run the organization like Buffalo. They are willing to build a deliberate culture of losing and screwing up in the hope of failing their way to success.

It actually is just that. It's the beginning, and one that no Stanley Cup Champion can skip. There's plenty that has to be done right after making the top picks, but without making those top picks first nothing else really matters.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It actually is just that. It's the beginning, and one that no Stanley Cup Champion can skip. There's plenty that has to be done right after making the top picks, but without making those top picks first nothing else really matters.

Vegas didn't. St. Louis didn't. Florida had two top-3 picks in the organization, from drafts 10 and 11 years before they won the Stanley Cup.

I find it interesting to look at Florida's top picks. They have picked in the top 3 seven times in their history. Ekblad and Barkov won the Cup there. The other five players were Ed Jovanovski, Jay Bouwmeester, Nathan Horton, Erik Gudbranson, and Jonathan Huberdeau, none of whom ever got a sniff at winning in a Florida uniform.

About all you can say is that if a team has that many top draft picks spread out over the years, it's pretty much guaranteed that some of them will be on the roster if the club ever wins a championship.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Vegas didn't. St. Louis didn't. Florida had two top-3 picks in the organization, from drafts 10 and 11 years before they won the Stanley Cup.

I find it interesting to look at Florida's top picks. They have picked in the top 3 seven times in their history. Ekblad and Barkov won the Cup there. The other five players were Ed Jovanovski, Jay Bouwmeester, Nathan Horton, Erik Gudbranson, and Jonathan Huberdeau, none of whom ever got a sniff at winning in a Florida uniform.

About all you can say is that if a team has that many top draft picks spread out over the years, it's pretty much guaranteed that some of them will be on the roster if the club ever wins a championship.

It's pretty arguable that TB's high draft picks were in 4th and 5th in terms of importance to their cup wins, behind guys obtained in the late first and second rounds. And those guys were also something like ten years and two rebuilds after being drafted.