American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by activeStick

https://twitter.com/user/status/1845831659523915833

The question would be, does the baby get a say? Does the doctor's advice matter or just the mom's?

When is a baby viable (with help of course) outside the womb? Earliest reports in the NICU are 21 weeks? That when the baby should get a say. No provinces in Canada offer abortion on request at 24 weeks and beyond, unless there are extreme medical complications. That seems reasonable, more so than late into the 3rd trimester decided by the mom.

[Ozy_Flame]

Does the baby come with a hand-written note about their right to life after 21 weeks?

What exactly do you expect a baby to say or do to logically tell you what they want? And at what point does the physician and/or mom no longer can speak for the baby?

I'm not disputing the term dates of abortion, but what a bizarre statement to make that the 'baby should get a say'. I invite you to tell me more about this threshold.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The question would be, does the baby get a say? Does the doctor's advice matter or just the mom's?

When is a baby viable (with help of course) outside the womb? Earliest reports in the NICU are 21 weeks? That when the baby should get a say. No provinces in Canada offer abortion on request at 24 weeks and beyond, unless there are extreme medical complications. That seems reasonable, more so than late into the 3rd trimester decided by the mom.

Marge is that you? Babies speaking up for themselves at 21 weeks? What do they do send a heavy kick?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Does the baby come with a hand-written note about their right to life after 21 weeks?

What exactly do you expect a baby to say or do to logically tell you what they want? And at what point does the physician and/or mom no longer can speak for the baby?

I'm not disputing the term dates of abortion, but what a bizarre statement to make that the 'baby should get a say'. I invite you to tell me more about this threshold.

Because the baby is viable at that point. If you are pregnant and the baby must come out due to complications, 21 to 24 weeks is the line between delivering or not. Anything before that is a late miscarriage.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Because the baby is viable at that point. If you are pregnant and the baby must come out due to complications, 21 to 24 weeks is the line between delivering or not. Anything before that is a late miscarriage.

It's not a baby, it's a fetus. And it isn't viable without much life support which will possibly lead to a lifetime of health difficulties. And it certainly isn't making reasoned decisions about its existence.


Which is why, you know, "parental rights and all" it's up to the mother to decide how to proceed, and what is in the best interests of them and their potential child. Or do you want the state making those decisions for the mother, and removing those rights from her? Nah, you are probably right. Ted Cruze knows best.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's not a baby, it's a fetus. And it isn't viable without much life support which will possibly lead to a lifetime of health difficulties. And it certainly isn't making reasoned decisions about its existence.


Which is why, you know, "parental rights and all" it's up to the mother to decide how to proceed, and what is in the best interests of them and their potential child. Or do you want the state making those decisions for the mother, and removing those rights from her? Nah, you are probably right. Ted Cruze knows best.

Interesting. Let's take it a step further. If from say 21 to 30 weeks there are complications and the doctors say, "we must deliver now to save mother and child," the mom could just say, "No, I don't want a baby that will have a lifetime of health difficulties."?

It's not about the state even, it's the doctors saying the baby can be saved. Can the mom say no anytime? Then what? Can the gyno just not deliver? Does she now have to find a specialist?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Because the baby is viable at that point. If you are pregnant and the baby must come out due to complications, 21 to 24 weeks is the line between delivering or not. Anything before that is a late miscarriage.

I'd be curious what you think about people who are in vegetative states. A baby is viable but likely in NICU support. A person who is comatose and vegetative is viable but likely on life support.

In both of these examples, can people verbalize logical and coherent arguments about their right to life?

[chedder]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The question would be, does the baby get a say? Does the doctor's advice matter or just the mom's?



When is a baby viable (with help of course) outside the womb? Earliest reports in the NICU are 21 weeks? That when the baby should get a say. No provinces in Canada offer abortion on request at 24 weeks and beyond, unless there are extreme medical complications. That seems reasonable, more so than late into the 3rd trimester decided by the mom.

And that's exactly what he's saying. Nobody's getting doing it for #####s and giggles and it's a tiny percentage. Also, did you see the next tweet in that link?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'd be curious what you think about people who are in vegetative states. A baby is viable but likely in NICU support. A person who is comatose and vegetative is viable but likely on life support.

In both of these examples, can people verbalize logical and coherent arguments about their right to life?

No baby can verbalize it's right to life.
What does that have to do with anything? That's not the threshold.

At some point a fetus becomes a baby; just a matter of when that is.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I'd be curious what you think about people who are in vegetative states. A baby is viable but likely in NICU support. A person who is comatose and vegetative is viable but likely on life support.

In both of these examples, can people verbalize logical and coherent arguments about their right to life?

That's interesting as well but i think that's on the opposite side of the spectrum. There is no cure for people, especially seniors, in vegetative states and MAID is considered to relieve suffering as they are headed there anyways.

However, a baby could still thrive. There are countless stories of premature babies being treated and growing up to be 'normal' human beings.

[Ozy_Flame]

And when is that point? Both medically and legally?

We've had a poster claim that the baby "should get a say". What does that look like at 21 weeks? Does the baby get a say? Or more realisitically, is it a physician? a parent? A lawyer or judge who actually gets a say?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

That's interesting as well but i think that's on the opposite side of the spectrum. There is no cure for people, especially seniors, in vegetative states and MAID is considered to relieve suffering as they are headed there anyways.

However, a baby could still thrive. There are countless stories of premature babies being treated and growing up to be 'normal' human beings.

Ah, so it's their propensity to live afterwards, even if they don't actually get to have a say. As adjudacated by a third-party.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Ah, so it's their propensity to live afterwards, even if they don't actually get to have a say. As adjudacated by a third-party.

Sure, there's a big legal fight about MAID too.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Sure, there's a big legal fight about MAID too.

So then the baby doesn't get to have a say, it's actually someone else, likely the law then, which is the whole kerfluffle in the first place, right?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

No baby can verbalize it's right to life.
What does that have to do with anything? That's not the threshold.

At some point a fetus becomes a baby; just a matter of when that is.

It's when it is born. That's the distinction. It isn't a baby until it is out of the mother.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

So then the baby doesn't get to have a say, it's actually someone else, likely the law then, which is the whole kerfluffle in the first place, right?

I'm against MAID so I think they get a say too. I was just citing the differences people might argue.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Interesting. Let's take it a step further. If from say 21 to 30 weeks there are complications and the doctors say, "we must deliver now to save mother and child," the mom could just say, "No, I don't want a baby that will have a lifetime of health difficulties."?

It's not about the state even, it's the doctors saying the baby can be saved. Can the mom say no anytime? Then what? Can the gyno just not deliver? Does she now have to find a specialist?

How many hypothetical situations have to be manufactured for edge cases to justify removing the rights of mothers to make their own health decisions?


And your last bit is just silly. Think about that playing out in reality. Really think on it.

[Ozy_Flame]

The fetal stage is from about the 8th week of pregnancy until the child is born.

The point it becomes a baby is when it's out of the mother. In the US, as per Roe vs. Wade (RIP), it is the point at which the fetus can survive outside the womb. Additionally, the Convention on the Rights of the Child, apply from birth and do not grant legal personhood to a fetus.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I'm against MAID so I think they get a say too. I was just citing the differences people might argue.

Why would you be against someone with a terminal illness having a say in how they die?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I'm against MAID so I think they get a say too. I was just citing the differences people might argue.

That's not the answer to my question, do you think the baby gets a say? Or a legal, medical or parental definition get the say in their right to life?