Rumor Owners meeting today to approve expansion to 34 teams

[Locke]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I'm not buying that at all. If that were the case there would already be another team in SW Ontario. Unless he is absolutely forced into a move like the Jets, Bettman has no interest in growing the game any more in Canada.

No. I disagree. Its about the money.

Could SW Ontario handle another team? Sure. But there is such a thing as 'Cannibalizing Profits.'

You've got teams in the region already that are making cash hand over fist.

Will you make more by adding another team? Odds are...probably not. Not in the grand scheme of things.

If I were unbelievably wealthy, would I invest in a Hockey Team in Ontario? Nope. Sounds like a bad deal.

You think you can walk in to Ontario and compete against the Leafs, Habs and Bruins? Thats not a bet I'd take.

Even the Sabres and Sens? They've all got established fan bases, you'd be taking a financial bath for decades. I'd invest my money elsewhere.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Locke

No. I disagree. Its about the money.

Could SW Ontario handle another team? Sure. But there is such a thing as 'Cannibalizing Profits.'

You've got teams in the region already that are making cash hand over fist.

Will you make more by adding another team? Odds are...probably not. Not in the grand scheme of things.

If I were unbelievably wealthy, would I invest in a Hockey Team in Ontario? Nope. Sounds like a bad deal.

You think you can walk in to Ontario and compete against the Leafs, Habs and Bruins? Thats not a bet I'd take.

Even the Sabres and Sens? They've all got established fan bases, you'd be taking a financial bath for decades. I'd invest my money elsewhere.

I honestly wonder if the Leafs have already topped out that market though. A lot of the cities in Southern Ontario are proud of the fact that they aren't Toronto and from my experience, there are growing distinctions. It might eat into the Leafs market share, but increase the NHL market share overall. I guess people smarter than me would have to do the math to see if it was worth it or not.

At one time the Leafs tried to block Vancouver from having a team because it would eat into their market share, but in the long run, it was probably a net positive for the league as a whole.

Despite places like Hamilton, Brampton, London, etc... being geographically a lot closer to Toronto, they also have increasing gravity of their own.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

If Gary Bettman is categorically denying it, it means it's happening.

Yup

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Locke

No. I disagree. Its about the money.

Could SW Ontario handle another team? Sure. But there is such a thing as 'Cannibalizing Profits.'

You've got teams in the region already that are making cash hand over fist.

Will you make more by adding another team? Odds are...probably not. Not in the grand scheme of things.

If I were unbelievably wealthy, would I invest in a Hockey Team in Ontario? Nope. Sounds like a bad deal.

You think you can walk in to Ontario and compete against the Leafs, Habs and Bruins? Thats not a bet I'd take.

Even the Sabres and Sens? They've all got established fan bases, you'd be taking a financial bath for decades. I'd invest my money elsewhere.

Yup. There is little potential for additional hockey fans in SW Ontario as opposed to large U.S. markets.

[UKflames]

All this talk of a second team in GTA, don't the leafs have an area exclusivity clause or something? Not 100% sure, but just remember hearing that somewhere else.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Yup. There is little potential for additional hockey fans in SW Ontario as opposed to large U.S. markets.

There are a lot of people I think would jump to a new team in SW Ontario because you cannot even get a ticket to a home game without paying a huge markup for the Leafs. I mean you are paying $200 for nosebleeds.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by UKflames

All this talk of a second team in GTA, don't the leafs have an area exclusivity clause or something? Not 100% sure, but just remember hearing that somewhere else.

It used to be that way. According to Bettman when Ballsilie tried to move Arizona to Hamilton that's no longer the case, it's a board of governors call.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Locke

No. I disagree. Its about the money.

Could SW Ontario handle another team? Sure. But there is such a thing as 'Cannibalizing Profits.'

You've got teams in the region already that are making cash hand over fist.

Will you make more by adding another team? Odds are...probably not. Not in the grand scheme of things.

If I were unbelievably wealthy, would I invest in a Hockey Team in Ontario? Nope. Sounds like a bad deal.

You think you can walk in to Ontario and compete against the Leafs, Habs and Bruins? Thats not a bet I'd take.

Even the Sabres and Sens? They've all got established fan bases, you'd be taking a financial bath for decades. I'd invest my money elsewhere.

Cannibolizing profits? I mean, maybe a little. But there would be a new rink with 41 new games to sell, and a new team with 82 more games for TV revenue. And the number of jerseys sold isn't going to remain flat - it's a whole other group of fans.

The question is this: does the league regret having 3 teams in the NY area? Are they lamenting cannibalization? Or are all 3 teams healthy and adding to league revenues?

I think the answer is very apparent, and the same expectation would apply to Southern Ontario, except to an even greater extent.

[Reggie Dunlop]

The introduction of the Islanders and Devils franchises have never affected the Ranger's bottom line.

[Ba'alzamon]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The question is this: does the league regret having 3 teams in the NY area? Are they lamenting cannibalization? Or are all 3 teams healthy and adding to league revenues? .

That's actually a good point. I bet there were similar arguments against putting a team in New Jersey.

However, D as in David raised a good point too: in a large US market you're more likely to create new fans than in a large(ish) Canadian one. The Canadians are already watching games and buying merch, you're just changing who they're watching and what they're buying, not really the quantity. Although I suppose you might have people buying both a Leafs jersey and a new team's jersey rather than just a Leafs jersey.

However: you can get a whole other arena's worth of people attending hockey games. Is that enough increased revenue? Maybe. New York seems to do okay with two teams in the same city.

Basically: I don't know what the answer is. I think lots of folks on this thread are raising good points, though.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ba'alzamon

That's actually a good point. I bet there were similar arguments against putting a team in New Jersey.

However, D as in David raised a good point too: in a large US market you're more likely to create new fans than in a large(ish) Canadian one. The Canadians are already watching games and buying merch, you're just changing who they're watching and what they're buying, not really the quantity. Although I suppose you might have people buying both a Leafs jersey and a new team's jersey rather than just a Leafs jersey.

However: you can get a whole other arena's worth of people attending hockey games. Is that enough increased revenue? Maybe. New York seems to do okay with two teams in the same city.

Basically: I don't know what the answer is. I think lots of folks on this thread are raising good points, though.

When there are two teams within a TV market, you simply have them play on different nights - one team focuses mainly on Wed and Sat, the other on Thursday and Sun (or whatever). And, believe it or not, some fans will actually watch both!

It isn't that hard, and cannibalization is not much of an argument (as proven in multiple cities in every sport)

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

When there are two teams within a TV market, you simply have them play on different nights - one team focuses mainly on Wed and Sat, the other on Thursday and Sun (or whatever). And, believe it or not, some fans will actually watch both!

It isn't that hard, and cannibalization is not much of an argument (as proven in multiple cities in every sport)

Trouble is, they already have two teams in the Toronto TV market: the Leafs and Raptors. The NBA has particular days of the week when they like to play, and the NHL has other days. They try not to step on each other's toes too much.

I'm sure an expansion team in southern Ontario would fill an arena regularly. But I'm also sure the media moguls that own MLSE would not be welcoming to such a team, and would do their very worst to make sure the Leafs keep control of the whole market.

[Reggie Dunlop]

San Diego has entered the chat...

Go-ahead given for an arena district development, including a facility that could host a NHL/NBA team.

Prime sports market with a void since the NFL left town.

https://www.sandiego.gov/economic-de.../midway-rising

[Meelapo]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

San Diego has entered the chat...

Go-ahead given for an arena district development, including a facility that could host a NHL/NBA team.

Prime sports market with a void since the NFL left town.

https://www.sandiego.gov/economic-de.../midway-rising

Would that even make sense given that the Sharks are fairly close by? And last year they only filled their arena at 76% capacity (https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.co...ar-season.aspx)

[Jay Random]

San Diego is nowhere near San Jose. It's much closer to LA and Anaheim, and even at that, it's 120 miles from one and 95 from the other. If NYC/New Jersey can support three teams, Southern California can probably do the same.

As for the Sharks, they drew bad crowds chiefly because they were by far the worst team in the league last year. When they're good, they sell out regularly.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Meelapo

Would that even make sense given that the Sharks are fairly close by? And last year they only filled their arena at 76% capacity (https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.co...ar-season.aspx)

San Diego is closer to L.A. and Anaheim than San Jose.

[Meelapo]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

San Diego is closer to L.A. and Anaheim than San Jose.

Originally Posted by Jay Random

San Diego is nowhere near San Jose. It's much closer to LA and Anaheim, and even at that, it's 120 miles from one and 95 from the other. If NYC/New Jersey can support three teams, Southern California can probably do the same.

As for the Sharks, they drew bad crowds chiefly because they were by far the worst team in the league last year. When they're good, they sell out regularly.

Whoops....sorry for some reason I read San Fransisco. Not sure why. Sorry about that!

[Strange Brew]

Why is San Diego a prime sports market?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Meelapo

Whoops....sorry for some reason I read San Fransisco. Not sure why.

It happens. Every time I go to California, I lose my way somewhere around San Ity.

[Southside]

nvm