Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Wait, what in the actual ####? Goddammit so much. At least they recognize the power of indoctrination at such a young age, many posters here seem to dispute that.

I suppose I'm just fear mongering here though, Pierre is totally not like the rest of those chuckle####s, right? He's Danielle Smith at the federal level, no different.

Poilievre is very publicly open about his Christian roots to the point he is actively campaigning at churches. I certainly don't like to see politicians affiliate themselves with religion, I'd welcome a secular party with non-destructive policies and vote for it first thing possible. Stuff like this are definite head shakers (as is his association with the freedumb convoy I heavily criticized as well).

https://globalnews.ca/news/10604598/...al-christians/

But let's take the hyperboles and let's make it true, Poilievre is Danielle Smith at the federal level, he's the Canadian Trump, he's a christofascist with fascist tendencies. Anyone who votes for them are fascist lovers etc etc...

Canadians are so completely disenchanted with the current left parties that they would knowingly vote for a Christofascist to get away from current policies and inept governing. Canadians are so incredibly disenchanted with Trudeau and Singh, that Poilievre will win just on account of not being them. Canadians are so incredibly disenchanted with the Liberals and NDP, Poilievre can sit at a dinner celebrating a man who wants to bring Christian perspective history books into schools, and absolutely nothing will happen because many Canadians have higher priorities to worry about.

You can yell and scream about how dangerous he is from the soapbox, people are just not listening anymore, as the current issues were never addressed appropriately. Fearmongering about how the alternative will be worse is simply is a not an effective constructive or long-term strategy

That is the true telling issue. Maybe they stay in power for 4 years only after revealing their true colours More likely it may be a Harper situation and they stay in power for a while (who is attending the dinner as well).

We can all see how Smith is destroying Alberta right now policy after policy, either people will notice it, or will notice it when everything went to crap and it's too late. This is why the Liberals-NDP have fallen out of favour with Canadians without the Conservatives really changing anything. Canadians had a moderate choice with O'Toole and chose the current status quo in 2021. Conservatives did not learn, in fact they went further right and overthrew O'Toole. They will certainly push some headscratchers.

The stuff that people said back in 2019 and 2021, about how conservatives need to change their policies and reimagine their policies, need to say this for the Liberals and NDP who are allowing the Conservatives to project to what is now a supermajority win.

We all know that won't happen, and we will need to wait until Conservatives screw up so bad for years that Canadians will flock to anyone but conservative again, gaslighting the deep segregated divisions in the country rather than fixing them.

[Fuzz]

Or, alternatively, people could look at Alberta and listen to the warnings. I will take a lame duck like Trudeau over a Smith any day of the week. Yes, he sucks and needs to go, but everyone with a brain saw what Smith was going to do, and here we are, she's doing it. Pierre has been educated in the same groups as her, shares many of the same connections, and has a similar philosophy, so I think it's fair to worry that Pierre is going to destroy Canada in the same way Smith is destroying Alberta. Pierre is just another bonehead who will ignore evidence based policies in favour of ideological ones. Heaven forbid I point that out.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

You can yell and scream about how dangerous he is from the soapbox, people are just not listening anymore, as the current issues were never addressed appropriately. Fearmongering about how the alternative will be worse is simply is a not an effective constructive or long-term strategy

…

The stuff that people said back in 2019 and 2021, about how conservatives need to change their policies and reimagine their policies, need to say this for the Liberals and NDP who are allowing the Conservatives to project to what is now a supermajority win.

These statements contradict each other.

[PepsiFree]

I’m just not sure where the logic is in arguing that criticizing the Conservatives hasn’t been effective and has, in fact, made them go further right, so what we need to do is criticize the Liberals and the NDP (which people have been doing, relentlessly) to gain… what exactly?

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Or, alternatively, people could look at Alberta and listen to the warnings. I will take a lame duck like Trudeau over a Smith any day of the week. Yes, he sucks and needs to go, but everyone with a brain saw what Smith was going to do, and here we are, she's doing it. Pierre has been educated in the same groups as her, shares many of the same connections, and has a similar philosophy, so I think it's fair to worry that Pierre is going to destroy Canada in the same way Smith is destroying Alberta. Pierre is just another bonehead who will ignore evidence based policies in favour of ideological ones. Heaven forbid I point that out.

Most Canadians just don't care about the fearmongering, they want a change now because they are angry. If immigration wasn't a runaway disaster, if cost of living wasn't a runaway disaster, the situation today wouldn't be what it was. Poilievre came in with a net negative approval rating and was largely seen as unlikeable as leader. Poilievre at the helm of the 2021 election would have likely caused a rout.

Understand that the same beefs you have with Smith (and they are legit) people have had with Trudeau-Singh for years and were not only left unchecked, but gaslit with self-serving policies like the heating oil carve out.

You are getting Poilievre no matter what you do right now as a result of not listening to past warnings, the question is, what do you do after? Do you fix things that caused people to switch, or do you deepen the divide and just wait for your turn when they eventually screw up?

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m just not sure where the logic is in arguing that criticizing the Conservatives hasn’t been effective and has, in fact, made them go further right, so what we need to do is criticize the Liberals and the NDP (which people have been doing, relentlessly) to gain… what exactly?

We could get something resembling a centrist party in Canada again?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Most Canadians just don't care about the fearmongering, they want a change now because they are angry. If immigration wasn't a runaway disaster, if cost of living wasn't a runaway disaster, the situation today wouldn't be what it was. Poilievre came in with a net negative approval rating and was largely seen as unlikeable as leader. Poilievre at the helm of the 2021 election would have likely caused a rout.

Understand that the same beefs you have with Smith (and they are legit) people have had with Trudeau-Singh for years and were not only left unchecked, but gaslit with self-serving policies like the heating oil carve out.

You are getting Poilievre no matter what you do right now as a result of not listening to past warnings, the question is, what do you do after? Do you fix things that caused people to switch, or do you deepen the divide and just wait for your turn when they eventually screw up?

Just to clarify, pointing out reality isn't fear-mongering. People said we were fear-mongering about criticisms and warnings of Smith. But it turned out it wasn't fear-mongering. When someone shows you who they are, you just have to pay attention.


I know we are getting PP, and I get that Trudeau has made mistakes, and people are done with him. That doesn't mean it makes any logical sense to put PP in charge. It's kinda like having a gaping flesh wound, and you can either sit with the blade in until you can get to the hospital, or yank it out, but all you have to bandage it with is a feces infused towel. Me? I'm waiting for the hospital.

[Jason14h]

Also most people dont think Alberta is broken or "look at Alberta as a warning"

Alberta is the most popular province to migrate to for a variety of reasons. A lot of people are looking at their province vs Alberta and thinking the opposite.

Even Albertan's who have first hand view of the political landscape have only had Danielle Smith's approval fall 5% since she got elected. Thats almost nothing for the incubent who almost always show a dip after getting elected .

Whereas JT has fallen to a low of 33%

The rest of the province and country don't reflect Calgarypuck's vocal minority as much as you wish they did!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Also most people dont think Alberta is broken or "look at Alberta as a warning"

Alberta is the most popular province to migrate to for a variety of reasons. A lot of people are looking at their province vs Alberta and thinking the opposite.

Even Albertan's who have first hand view of the political landscape have only had Danielle Smith's approval fall 5% since she got elected. Thats almost nothing for the incubent who almost always show a dip after getting elected .

Whereas JT has fallen to a low of 33%

The rest of the province and country don't reflect Calgarypuck's vocal minority as much as you wish they did!

They'll get there, some people are just a bit slow.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They'll get there, some people are just a bit slow.

I agree 33% of people still approve of JT

[iggy_oi]

The way firebot describes Canadians falling out with parties not named the CPC you’d swear the polls would be showing that they are going to be getting 90% of the popular vote.

They’ll likely win the seats necessary to get a majority, but they aren’t as popular with Canadians as you make them out to be. The Liberals won a majority in 2015 with less than 40% of total votes, I highly doubt you’d characterize that as Canadians at the time being fed up with all of the other parties so I’m not sure why you’re resorting to that in the current scenario.

[Ozy_Flame]

One of the main reasons why Alberta is so popular the last 3-4 years is because of two world class cities and their cheap home prices during a growing housing cost crisis. A much smaller subset of people come specifically for the mountains. And likely an even smaller subset come for the no PST thing (and if people revolve their life story around that, that's weird AF). The wage differences are narrowing as it hasn't kept up with inflation as well.

And I would bet money on most of htose people not moving to Alberta for politics and not caring about that until they're well settled in and can focus on things other than the essentials (if they're even remotely interested). Even then, I don't htink people who move to Alberta suddenly become conservative (or liberal). That's a mindset change that goes deeper than moving across provincial lines.

I'm sure many would have preferred to stay in BC or Ontario if they could. But such is life.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Firebot

We could get something resembling a centrist party in Canada again?

Maybe. But I’m not following your logic down that path. Stay with me for a second here:

- Over the last two elections, Canadians have pointed out some of the far right-leaning issues with the Conservatives (soapboxing, fearmongering, whatever we want to call it is fine for this example)
- Instead of acknowledging those issues and making policy changes towards centrism, the Conservative party has actually leaned into those issues and gone further right

So, if we agree that’s true and ignore the fact that the Liberals and NDP have been heavily criticized for years and they’ve only gotten “worse,” isn’t the suggestion that people should turn their criticisms against the Liberals and NDP likely to be equally fruitless? Why would it be different?

If the Conservatives responded to criticism by going further right instead of centre, why would the Liberals not do the same (but opposite) thing? (I fully expect the NDP to go further left after Singh leaves, but I don’t think it’s a response to general criticism).

You know what I mean?

Maybe the reality of politics today (and as far as I know, Canadian politics for a very long time, at least as far back as Chrétien) is that parties don’t actually “win” elections, parties lose them. Harper won because people grew tired of the Liberals, Trudeau won because people grew tired of the Conservatives. Maybe the NDP overtakes the Liberals while the Conservatives are in power and become the “other” option, and so maybe the real race is between who becomes the other option as we wait for the 4+ years for people to grow tired of a party.

A party that everyone agrees is centrist would likely rule forever, because none of the options are “different” enough. But nobody will ever agree on something like that. Trudeau is far left to some people. O’Toole was far right. Despite these guys not being remarkably different in policy (not as wide a gap as the Singh and PP, for example).

Anyways, just rambling at this point.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Or, alternatively, people could look at Alberta and listen to the warnings. I will take a lame duck like Trudeau over a Smith any day of the week. Yes, he sucks and needs to go, but everyone with a brain saw what Smith was going to do, and here we are, she's doing it. Pierre has been educated in the same groups as her, shares many of the same connections, and has a similar philosophy, so I think it's fair to worry that Pierre is going to destroy Canada in the same way Smith is destroying Alberta. Pierre is just another bonehead who will ignore evidence based policies in favour of ideological ones. Heaven forbid I point that out.

What a dumb position.

Smith is destroying Alberta!
We don't want her!

Trudeau is destroying Cana...oh wait, lets ignore that and yeah he sucks but I'm still just my head in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong.

Again, you're like Looch. Can't admit to the fact that there are VERY real issues that Trudeau is at fault for, and that is why people don't want him or the ####bag Liberals in charge anymore.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Just to clarify, pointing out reality isn't fear-mongering. People said we were fear-mongering about criticisms and warnings of Smith. But it turned out it wasn't fear-mongering. When someone shows you who they are, you just have to pay attention.


I know we are getting PP, and I get that Trudeau has made mistakes, and people are done with him. That doesn't mean it makes any logical sense to put PP in charge. It's kinda like having a gaping flesh wound, and you can either sit with the blade in until you can get to the hospital, or yank it out, but all you have to bandage it with is a feces infused towel. Me? I'm waiting for the hospital.

Perhaps you should have voted for the much lessor tool, and much more middle of the road reasonable choice in O'Toole and now we wouldn't be in this position where someone like PP is going to be PM.

To a certain extent we deserve what we're going to get because we got fear-mongered into thinking the MUCH better option is something everyone should be afraid of.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Firebot

We could get something resembling a centrist party in Canada again?

Other than some pandering (which is never backed up by actual policy), what about the Liberals isn't basically the most milquetoast centrist neoliberal government imaginable? They're currently running the smallest deficits in the G7, oil production is at all time highs, and the carbon tax that everyone is freaking out about is rooted in neoliberal free-market philosophy.

That's not to say they're effective, but their issues aren't because they've drifted from some imagined center point. They're failing in much the same way that a lot of centrist status quo liberal parties around the western world are by inadequately responding to the conditions that give rise to extremism.

People who say they want centrism more often than not actually want conservatism. There's a reason why enlightened centrism is a meme at this point, in the same vein as "classical liberal".

[Jason14h]

Mic Drop

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

Perhaps you should have voted for the much lessor tool, and much more middle of the road reasonable choice in O'Toole and now we wouldn't be in this position where someone like PP is going to be PM.

To a certain extent we deserve what we're going to get because we got fear-mongered into thinking the MUCH better option is something everyone should be afraid of.

It’s always funny to me when conservatives have such low self-confidence and lack of conviction that they look for every opportunity to blame everyone else for their own actions.

“Well, if you had just voted for O’Toole we wouldn’t have had to kick him out and then vote in PP!”

Or, you know, the Conservatives could have just kept O’Toole and let him continue to build trust with Canadians instead of kicking him out. Or chosen someone who wasn’t PP.

But darn, if only everyone else didn’t make them do it. Has anyone seen their spine?

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The way firebot describes Canadians falling out with parties not named the CPC you’d swear the polls would be showing that they are going to be getting 90% of the popular vote.

They’ll likely win the seats necessary to get a majority, but they aren’t as popular with Canadians as you make them out to be. The Liberals won a majority in 2015 with less than 40% of total votes, I highly doubt you’d characterize that as Canadians at the time being fed up with all of the other parties so I’m not sure why you’re resorting to that in the current scenario.

Come on Iggy - Polls are suggesting an annihilation next election.

Depending on which you like the Cons are getting around 220 seats and the Liberals could fall as low as 4th in the country.

This is a massive change from 3 years ago. Canadians clearly have either fallen in love with the CPC or out of love with the other parties.

And if we are to take the opinions around here that PP sucks and people dont like him, theres only one other option for the dramatic change on opinion

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s always funny to me when conservatives have such low self-confidence and lack of conviction that they look for every opportunity to blame everyone else for their own actions.

“Well, if you had just voted for O’Toole we wouldn’t have had to kick him out and then vote in PP!”

Or, you know, the Conservatives could have just kept O’Toole and let him continue to build trust with Canadians instead of kicking him out. Or chosen someone who wasn’t PP.

But darn, if only everyone else didn’t make them do it. Has anyone seen their spine?

They chose the candidate who is going to win in a landslide.

I think the political party accomplished their goal of winning the next election just fine.