Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Apparently, not if you trade in another new Toyota. My cousin was able to get a Sienna Hybrid right away by trading in his new car that he'd been driving for less than half a year. He was told he'd have to wait like 14-16 months if he wanted to buy the Sienna hybrid without a trade in. I think the issue many Toyota dealers have is Toyotoa inventory in general.

It sounds kinda stupid, but it might be faster getting into a Toyota hybrid by buying the first brand new Toyota you can get your hands on, driving it for a few months then contacting dealers asking to get one and mentioning you have a several months old Toyota you'd trade in.

I'm sure dealers would love that. Buyer takes 30% depreciation hit, refinance as well.

Might as well just set a pile of money on fire.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GGG

Even from an environmental standpoint selling 8 PHEVs with 50k range whose 50-80% of the kms are battery driven and can be charged of 110V circuits is much better than 100% of 1 cars Kms.

Until we aren’t battery constrained the PHEV is the better product.

My city driving is almost 100% electric now.

Saving about $300-$400/mth on gas.

Also driving in EV mode is so smooth and quiet.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

No. It was fine, but it was a 5 seater vehicle. He had visitors this summer and needed a vehicle to seat 8. He decided to see if he could upgrade to a van before renting or borrowing my van for the summer.

Toyota demanded his Corolla to be traded in for the Sienna Hybrid or would refuse to sell it to him and put him on a 14-16 month waiting list instead.

Essentially he just paid more money to get it now.
The trade in has positive value; the dealership will sell it for profit and therefore giving the car to your cousin is worth more to them than others on the waitlist.

I don't think they're allowed to sell to buyers at above dealership pricing (highest bidder); so this is another way of doing that.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Funnily enough, getting a Toyota hybrid right now takes months, if not years.

Yep. On the list for a Rav 4 Hybrid at the moment and they say anywhere from 3 months to a year. Could buy a used one for the same price as a new one for the 'now' premium. Would love a Prime but unless you want to pay ~20k above MSRP in high margin add-ons those are about as common as unicorns in Alberta.

You can move up the list if you buy a higher trim, warranty, 3M coating, etc, or trade in a valuable vehicle because the dealer makes more $$.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Shazam

My city driving is almost 100% electric now.

Saving about $300-$400/mth on gas.

Also driving in EV mode is so smooth and quiet.

We have a mild hybrid and I really like it for driving around the city. Next year I'll likely be replacing our old family hauler with either a PHEV or a mild hybrid truck like the Maverick (now that it will be available in AWD as a hybrid.)

On a regular commute to work and home or going out for groceries we can do about 70% or more of that in EV mode.

[Shazam]

Next car will be a full electric.

Shaky ICE engine pisses me off now.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Torture

Yep. On the list for a Rav 4 Hybrid at the moment and they say anywhere from 3 months to a year. Could buy a used one for the same price as a new one for the 'now' premium. Would love a Prime but unless you want to pay ~20k above MSRP in high margin add-ons those are about as common as unicorns in Alberta.

You can move up the list if you buy a higher trim, warranty, 3M coating, etc, or trade in a valuable vehicle because the dealer makes more $$.

I wanted a Highlander Limited Hybrid, they told me a year.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gre...lays-1.7314006

When I read stuff like this, it really confirms my position that handouts for EV's to wealthy people that can afford them has been the wrong tactic. Electrifying buses and things like delivery vehicles will have far more impact on CO2 emissions and air quality than passenger cars. That this bus funding challenge exists and is limiting their adoption is silly, while people making 200k a year get their hand outs to buy fancy cars. And ultimately school buses are bought with taxpayer dollars, so it's also far better value for taxpayers. I'll remember this every time a stinky diesel school bus dusts me on my bike. Dumb.

I think that misses the actual way these things scale. I read somewhere that taxis and last mile delivery do like 40% or so of the total miles driven, but they only account for a very small sliver of actual vehicles. You simply cannot get cost down on manufacturing the vehicles by selling so few

Also, guess where the affordable second hand vehicles come from?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Also, guess where the affordable second hand vehicles come from?

You've mentioned this second hand vehicle stuff before and it sounds an awful lot like the trickle down economic theory. If we give breaks and subsidizes to the top it will work it's way down to the bottom and everyone will be better off.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gre...lays-1.7314006

When I read stuff like this, it really confirms my position that handouts for EV's to wealthy people that can afford them has been the wrong tactic. Electrifying buses and things like delivery vehicles will have far more impact on CO2 emissions and air quality than passenger cars. That this bus funding challenge exists and is limiting their adoption is silly, while people making 200k a year get their hand outs to buy fancy cars. And ultimately school buses are bought with taxpayer dollars, so it's also far better value for taxpayers. I'll remember this every time a stinky diesel school bus dusts me on my bike. Dumb.

The fact of the matter is that you need people with money to buy the damned things at the start. What I bought is basically a Commodore 64-era EV. You need people like me to fund the industry.

Do governments like to interfere? Well yeah. What did you expect from the LPC?

[Shazam]

If it makes you feel any better, the new BMW iX has electric motors that uses no rare earth metals.

Or how about making lighter, stronger, sexier steels? https://knowablemagazine.org/content...tldrnewsletter

This #### costs money. You have to pay people to do this stuff. Annoying right?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

You've mentioned this second hand vehicle stuff before and it sounds an awful lot like the trickle down economic theory. If we give breaks and subsidizes to the top it will work it's way down to the bottom and everyone will be better off.

It sort of does. The problem is that building a bunch of Mercedes S class cars does not lead to affordable family transportation for the masses.

However, if we were building and selling a ton of Nissan Leafs, you can bet they would be pretty ubiquitous a decade later.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Shazam

I'm sure dealers would love that. Buyer takes 30% depreciation hit, refinance as well.

Might as well just set a pile of money on fire.

Normally yes, but due to a unique set of circumstances he said he got trade in value only a few K less than what he originally paid. Less than 10% decrease to what he paid for it. Dealership wanted to buy it back more than once before he traded it in for the Sienna.

I think I know why though. They originally tried a bait and switch on him and he had email proof so he threatened to complain to corporate. This car was probably supposed to go to someone else but they sold it to him to avoid a fiasco. I bet the dealership contacted someone on the wait list and said they had a fantastic low kms model for only a few K off MSRP. I even bet they were elated to find out my cousin was only driving a few hundred KMs a month in that car. They probably made profit even with the trade in they offered my cousin.

Agreed other people typically get hosed by the dealerships when they change cars every 6-12 months though.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

You've mentioned this second hand vehicle stuff before and it sounds an awful lot like the trickle down economic theory. If we give breaks and subsidizes to the top it will work it's way down to the bottom and everyone will be better off.

I'm not talking about stimulating an entire economy.

If you want to subsidize EVs, you can either subsidize a bit to stimulate growth in sales, or you can subsidize 3x the amount so it's "fair". That's it. That's the options.



I get Fuzz' point, but we already subsidize buses:

https://housing-infrastructure.canad...index-eng.html

And we already subsidize fleets like taxi's buying EVs:

https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transpo...ogram-overview

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gre...lays-1.7314006

When I read stuff like this, it really confirms my position that handouts for EV's to wealthy people that can afford them has been the wrong tactic. Electrifying buses and things like delivery vehicles will have far more impact on CO2 emissions and air quality than passenger cars. That this bus funding challenge exists and is limiting their adoption is silly, while people making 200k a year get their hand outs to buy fancy cars. And ultimately school buses are bought with taxpayer dollars, so it's also far better value for taxpayers. I'll remember this every time a stinky diesel school bus dusts me on my bike. Dumb.

I wonder with the really large batteries if you don’t actually optimize battery or cost. No idea. I think the goal of the subsidies is $/tonne co2 saved. I think that is done by optimizing the amount of kms replaced. If on a per person km driven basis the smelly bus is more efficient than the car then subsidizing people is what makes sense.

Really subsidizing battery production directly might make the most sense.

[Fuzz]

Focusing solely on CO2 can be a bit of a trap though. As the article mentioned, kids inhaling diesel fumes on hour long bus rides isn't great. Same with all the particulate spewed out in cities. So while you may have a point on CO2 alone(or not, haven't looked at numbers) we often get blinded by one metric. I think it's fair to argue the more holistically, replacing diesel buses with EV buses has a much bigger positive effect on our environment than moving people from Civic's into Model 3's does.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Focusing solely on CO2 can be a bit of a trap though. As the article mentioned, kids inhaling diesel fumes on hour long bus rides isn't great. Same with all the particulate spewed out in cities. So while you may have a point on CO2 alone(or not, haven't looked at numbers) we often get blinded by one metric. I think it's fair to argue the more holistically, replacing diesel buses with EV buses has a much bigger positive effect on our environment than moving people from Civic's into Model 3's does.

Noise pollution.

Benzene from gasoline.

Moving towards non-ICE vehicles have benefits outside climate change

[Winsor_Pilates]

Picked up my i4 m50 today; you're welcome planet.
Loving it so far; drove from Vancouver to Langley and back for a meeting. So smooth & crazy fast acceleration on the highway.
Have not plugged it in yet.

[dammage79]

Kinda curious how much an EV owners monthly electric bill is. And what's the monthly difference in overall operations costs between I.C.E and EV vehicle ownership.


I'm guessing in place not B.C, those power bills must be insane. I mean in my completely uneducated on the subject brain, EV owner has to be more expensive overall than I.C.E..

In B.C I can see it being cheaper.

[Josh]

Our electric company (PGE) allows us to enroll into a program where we do time of use charging at home. The car usually charges in the middle of the night, I'm on a 220v 60A circuit for my charger. They give me a monthly report on the miles traveled and my charging cost. On this program, the cost for charging my car is usually between $15-$25.

For reference, its a 2022 Tesla Model 3 LR.