American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Ya what a terrible point to make that we should politicians accountable. You’re so right, how could I be so stupid as to hold politicians accountable for the decisions they’ve made in the time period immediately before this.

So how accountable should Trump be for killing the bi-partisan border bill?

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

I think that living in Canada, you don’t see some of the damage that those policies have done, so it’s easy to just write them off as “normal political speak”. In reality, when you look at something like the border and immigration crisis, that’s something that has had a notable impact on many people’s every day lives, so yes, the “normal political speak” is a big deal when it’s tangibly worsened people’s lives.

Does the border and immigration issue really impact that many people? How many people in the US are materially affected in a negative way during the Biden presidency? More than 1%? More than .01%? What are the actual problems?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

I think that living in Canada, you don’t see some of the damage that those policies have done, so it’s easy to just write them off as “normal political speak”. In reality, when you look at something like the border and immigration crisis, that’s something that has had a notable impact on many people’s every day lives, so yes, the “normal political speak” is a big deal when it’s tangibly worsened people’s lives.

That same reality includes facts like Trump already being President for 4 years and doing sweet f*** all about the border issue and then killing the bipartisan bill to try for his own political motives. And the fact that the Vice President has zero power to do anything policy-wise outside of advising the President, so blaming her for a border crisis is basically nonsense. There's an alarming amount of people that think the 4 years a President is in office is the same 4 years that you feel the impacts of their policy and then that's it.

However, I do agree there's heat to give Kamala. She's not doing a great job of convincing people who wouldn't otherwise vote for her. It'd be pretty easy to say "I'm not the President, I respect and advise him but he's under no obligation to listen to me. In fact, it's a good thing if a President and VP vehemently disagree on certain things so they can have robust discussions. I don't agree with all Joe's policies and here's where I'm different."

Also the first question about her changes in policy or whatever is so f***ing easy. "I have new information and changed my mind." "That was a policy that worked for my constituents at the time, but I'm fighting for all Americans here." instead of "values!"

Can we do Walz and JD now?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

I think that living in Canada, you don’t see some of the damage that those policies have done, so it’s easy to just write them off as “normal political speak”. In reality, when you look at something like the border and immigration crisis, that’s something that has had a notable impact on many people’s every day lives, so yes, the “normal political speak” is a big deal when it’s tangibly worsened people’s lives.

EDIT: Wasn't Prince

[dino7c]

I don't get this boarder stuff...Trump had Mexico build a wall nobody can get in anyway

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Does the border and immigration issue really impact that many people? How many people in the US are materially affected in a negative way during the Biden presidency? More than 1%? More than .01%? What are the actual problems?

Yes, the state of New York declared a state of emergency due to the migrant crisis in order to access funds to deal with it. With all of the people that crossed the border, many municipalities are forced to re-allocate funds away from other priorities in order to deal with the influx of migrants who aren’t able to work for at least six months once entering the country. Not to mention some of the security issues you’re seeing like gangs taking over apartment buildings in Aurora, Colorado.

And sure, you could argue that as VP, Kamala had little to do with the policies causing this, but to try and argue that the President, and Biden in general had nothing to do with this influx is objectively false. Biden instituted executive order and policies which have directly led to the rapid influx of migrants.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/23/b...migration.html

I totally agree that Trump should also shoulder some blame for this by railroading the deal last year as some stupid ploy to make Biden look worse. It’s unacceptable and disgusting to clearly damage the country as a political tool to try and make yourself look better.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I mean, if you want to be critical of Harris on the border issue, especially since she was "put in charge of it" by Biden, then have at it, but focus on policy. Getting upset at rhetoric is ####ing pointless.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Wait. Is Prince the poster who railed on the border and illegal immigrants, but then admitted to using cheap immigrant labour to build stuff?

or who was that?

That absolutely was not me.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Ya what a terrible point to make that we should politicians accountable. You’re so right, how could I be so stupid as to hold politicians accountable for the decisions they’ve made in the time period immediately before this.

You can hold the jay-walker and the murderer accountable but society should probably spend more time and money on the murderer

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

For the umpteenth time, I’m not sure why people keep bringing up Trump examples, as if that changes anything. Nowhere in any of my posts have I justified one word out of Trump’s mouth. Nor will you see that happen. Nothing I’m saying has anything to do with Trump.

Because this is why Trump is successful. It's how he won in 2016. News coverage, print media, everyone did exactly what you're doing right now. Someone says, "I'm not defending Trump, we all know he lies, but let's talk for a bit about Harris's problem with X", and it creates the notion of not just a false equivalence but worse: a massively disproportionate focus is aimed at disproportionately irrelevant problems Harris has. The things you're concerned about are, for the most part, subjective disagreements about how misleading a characterization is or fairly minor misstatements of fact - in other words, your standard, run of the mill political spin. No, that is not worth talking about when the other guy is on an entirely different planet. That is why people "keep bringing up Trump examples".

People, unsurprisingly, find this sort of thing objectionable.

[dino7c]

exactly, Trump has a lower bar and is graded on the curve

[Mathgod]

Imagine your house being on fire but your only concern is holding your neighbours accountable for playing music too loudly.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Because this is why Trump is successful. It's how he won in 2016. News coverage, print media, everyone did exactly what you're doing right now. Someone says, "I'm not defending Trump, we all know he lies, but let's talk for a bit about Harris's problem with X", and it creates the notion of not just a false equivalence but worse: a massively disproportionate focus is aimed at disproportionately irrelevant problems Harris has. The things you're concerned about are, for the most part, subjective disagreements about how misleading a characterization is or fairly minor misstatements of fact - in other words, your standard, run of the mill political spin. No, that is not worth talking about when the other guy is on an entirely different planet. That is why people "keep bringing up Trump examples".

People, unsurprisingly, find this sort of thing objectionable.

Totally agree that this happened the first time around, but I don’t think this is the case now. Trump the first time around was given the “well most candidates shift back to center after election” benefit of the doubt. Now he’s more of a known quantity. Nowadays, everything has become about identity politics. The people that are voting for Trump know they’re going to vote for Trump and he could essentially murder puppies on live TV, and his cult would try and defend it somehow.

That’s why I just immediately disregard everything he says. I’m not giving him a free pass, I’m not supporting him, I’m not “playing into his hands”. He is sub-human to me and I choose to focus my time and attention elsewhere.

Again, I equate this to the Israel/Hamas situation. Hamas is a terrorist organization that does deplorable things and deserves to be destroyed. That doesn’t mean Israel is beyond criticism and is free to do whatever it likes.

[Mathgod]

If your point was "Harris could be more effective at winning over voters by doing XY&Z", then maybe you should have worded it that way.

Phrasing it as "I'm holding Harris to account for lying" comes across as selective outrage and political hackery.

[Dion]

'It's his kryptonite': GOP operatives said to be trashing Trump behind his back as 'old'

MSNBC's Dasha Burns spoke from the debate site in Pennsylvania the morning after, revealing what GOP officials are saying behind Trump's back.

But it was one specific Republican who highlighted just how bad things were.

"He said, economic start was fine, abortion was a disaster, then she baited him with the rallies comment, and he hasn't been off the ropes since," Dasha Burns quoted from the GOP operative. "It's like his kryptonite."

The operative also noted that Harris successfully made age an issue again without even saying it.

"Trump sat back and let Joe Biden sound old and incoherent in that first debate; now she's sitting back letting Trump sound old, angry, and rambling," Burns explained. "Again, that's from a Republican operative. So the Trump campaign, I think, you know, from behind the scenes, wishes that he had spent more time on answers like immigration where he could have sort of criticized Harris, could have touted his administration's victories. Instead, he went into the unfounded claims about Haitians eating cats and dogs."

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/polit...d2a3b0ca&ei=12

[Josh]

Since I'm a Canadian living in the US, I'm having my wife post a picture on her socials of me trying to eat the dog.

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Imagine your house being on fire but your only concern is holding your neighbours accountable for playing music too loudly.

Imagine making one small comment about a politician lying and misleading and having ten people immediately jump down your throat that it’s ok because the other guy is worse.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Totally agree that this happened the first time around, but I don’t think this is the case now. Trump the first time around was given the “well most candidates shift back to center after election” benefit of the doubt. Now he’s more of a known quantity. Nowadays, everything has become about identity politics. The people that are voting for Trump know they’re going to vote for Trump and he could essentially murder puppies on live TV, and his cult would try and defend it somehow.

That’s why I just immediately disregard everything he says. I’m not giving him a free pass, I’m not supporting him, I’m not “playing into his hands”. He is sub-human to me and I choose to focus my time and attention elsewhere.

Again, I equate this to the Israel/Hamas situation. Hamas is a terrorist organization that does deplorable things and deserves to be destroyed. That doesn’t mean Israel is beyond criticism and is free to do whatever it likes.

I mean, sure, but the level of effort you're putting into something so fantastically benign is strange.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

Imagine making one small comment about a politician lying and misleading and having ten people immediately jump down your throat that it’s ok because the other guy is worse.

It's an election where the stakes are extremely high. When you closely scrutinize every word said by the non-fascist, while giving the fascist a free pass, you are engaging in dishonest political hackery.

It's the exact thing the media did in 2016 (and to some extent are doing again this year), and look what happened.

[Looch City]

You know what? You've convinced me. I'm voting for Trump.