American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Azure

As someone who has posted extensively how Citizens United v. FEC allowed corporate America to take control of the government & lobbying world you sure are pretty delusional when it comes to a minority group's position & power on how to enact change.

But just to be clear, you are saying that the anti-genocide protesters should STFU and form a PAC, and then go lobby the government to enact change?

There is no way on this planet you actually believe this is going to make any difference, or actually think that the protesters have a hope of accomplishing this.

Effectively you just want them to STFU because they are protesting against your team, and you don't actually give a #### about the genocide when it makes the Democrats look bad.

It's especially stupid when you consider how many of these protesters are students and young people with limited financial resources. But sure, go out and start a PAC that'll rival AIPAC, etc.

EDIT: It's the political equivalent of "If you don't like Walmart, go out and start your own store!"

[afc wimbledon]

There is eff all the US can do to reign Bibi in, nothing the US does or says will make any difference to the outcome in Gaza, doubt they can do much to stop a war with Hezbollah either

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I thought the end goal was to bring about fewer dead Palestinian children, rather than satiating the most people?

I thought it was obvious that I was speaking from the campaign's perspective vs. the protestors. For the protestors, something like that statement is an actionable item that they can hopefully hold her feet to the fire on if she becomes president. For the campaign, it makes the candidate look like less of an ####### than chastising people who are against genocide does.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Azure

I literally don't get this.

Harris has been part of the administration that allowed this 'genocide' to happen. Now you're saying people should not protest against her because somehow Trump is worse? Still waiting for everyone to answer as to what is worse than genocide because right now especially your reply to this entire topic as someone who has been screaming genocide for months makes it seem like you only call it genocide if it supports your political cause, and excuse it when it isn't beneficial to your cause to call it genocide.

What's worse than people dying? Even more people dying. That's what's worse. And if you don't think the additional deaths mean anything because "it was already genocide anyway", I don't know what to say to you.

You know what else is worse than genocide? Letting climate change get out of control and reach civilization-ending levels. Because at that point we no longer have a viable planet to live on, and everything, even genocide, becomes a moot point.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

But you know that’s not actually how it works, right?

That’s why people still vote for Trump, other, or don’t vote at all?

Like, I get saying “we must come together and ignore our differences and choose what is best for society!” but that just ignores the fact that people have very different ideas of what that entails.

And, to play devil’s advocate here, isn’t it up to pro-Israel Democrats to vote for Harris regardless of what they believe or what her stance is? If she changed it and went more pro-Palestine, would be having the same conversation and suggesting everyone else just needs to fall in line?

Only two people have any chance of winning this election, Harris and Trump. Which outcome is best for society?

Yes the electoral system sucks. But there is no way to change it, at least not in the next 88 days.

And yes it's up to pro-Israel Democrats to vote for Harris regardless of what they believe or what her stance is. But at the end of the day, you are not anyone else, you are you, you can only control you. If you were a pro-Israel Democrat and Harris went full pro-Palestine, I'd be urging you with the exact same level of urgency to vote for Harris.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You know, Cliff, for some people, genocide is wrong and should be protested on the basis of it being wrong. Not everyone is a cold-blooded pragmatist. That's not "purity-policing."

Protest all you like. But it was a politically rally, concerned with electoral politics. They even used the word “vote” in their chant.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by rubecube

First off, 1 in 3 American Jews are critical of Israel. Second, the states with the highest Jewish population are New York, California, and Florida. They're not losing New York or California, and Florida is strongly leaning GOP.

As I said, the majority of Americans support a ceasefire. That's a very middle of the road position to take that doesn't make you sound like an ####### the way that "Shut up or you'll get Trump elected" does.

There are 300,000 voting age Jews in PA, and they probably aren't all that happy that their Jewish governor was passed over mostly for being Jewish. In terms of pure strategy, it is a fine line. The "shut up..." line is probably regretful as it only hurt her really.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

There are 300,000 voting age Jews in PA, and they probably aren't all that happy that their Jewish governor was passed over mostly for being Jewish. In terms of pure strategy, it is a fine line. The "shut up..." line is probably regretful as it only hurt her really.

This is sort of what I'm saying. It's a fine line, but it's okay to say that she probably could have handled it better.

The good news for her is that, on the same day, Trump said his Jan. 6th speech was bigger than MLK's "Million Man March," which is so obviously stupid and untrue that it'll likely be the bigger news story.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I'd imagine there are quite a few women, black people, poor people, immigrants, lgbtq people who's lives were made materially worse by the last Trump presidency would find these protests to be quite elitist if they thought they increased the chances of him getting a second term.

The Palestinian conflict ranks as something like the 8th or 9th most important issue to Democrats. I’m confident it ranks even lower among non-college Democrats. It’s hardly the rallying cause of rank and file working-class Democrats, let alone swing-state undecideds. Harris and her advisors know that.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

What's worse than people dying? Even more people dying. That's what's worse. And if you don't think the additional deaths mean anything because "it was already genocide anyway", I don't know what to say to you.

You know what else is worse than genocide? Letting climate change get out of control and reach civilization-ending levels. Because at that point we no longer have a viable planet to live on, and everything, even genocide, becomes a moot point.


Only two people have any chance of winning this election, Harris and Trump. Which outcome is best for society?

Yes the electoral system sucks. But there is no way to change it, at least not in the next 88 days.

And yes it's up to pro-Israel Democrats to vote for Harris regardless of what they believe or what her stance is. But at the end of the day, you are not anyone else, you are you, you can only control you. If you were a pro-Israel Democrat and Harris went full pro-Palestine, I'd be urging you with the exact same level of urgency to vote for Harris.

So the Democrats, specifically Harris being complicit of what you call a genocide in Gaza is okay as long as it means she gets elected again because she'll stop climate change from happening and more people from dying in Gaza? That about the gist of it?

Because then it must really, really pain you to know that US oil production has reached a record level under the Biden / Harris administration.

So we've established that you are perfectly okay with the genocide as long as the Democrats are in power, and you are perfectly okay with the US becoming an oil producing power house, even if you believe climate change is worse than genocide, as long as again, the Democrats are in power.

I mean the Republicans long to yell 'drill baby drill', but under the Democrats it actually happens.

That is quite the political perspective you have going on.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And, if Trump and Republicans are actively worse for Palestinians and more “Pro-Israel” than the alternative, isn’t a protest against the Dems for being too Pro-Israel/bad for Palestinians going to endear them to Republicans? Why would those voters see the protests and think “Wow, people don’t like how Pro-Israel the Dems are? We better not vote for them!”

No, because any republican endeared by it would already be voting for the most pro-Israel option available, Trump.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

No, because any republican endeared by it would already be voting for the most pro-Israel option available, Trump.

So why would it make anyone else vote for Trump?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I thought it was obvious that I was speaking from the campaign's perspective vs. the protestors. For the protestors, something like that statement is an actionable item that they can hopefully hold her feet to the fire on if she becomes president. For the campaign, it makes the candidate look like less of an ####### than chastising people who are against genocide does.

I know you aren't really looking at this from a pragmatic viewpoint but it all comes down to getting votes and winning the election. You continue to ignore that she actually has a hard Israeli stance for a Presidential candidate.

She is already on record calling for a ceasefire and ending the tragedies in Gaza. What do the protesters want, her to say screw Israel?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Palestinian conflict ranks as something like the 8th or 9th most important issue to Democrats. I’m confident it ranks even lower among non-college Democrats. It’s hardly the rallying cause of rank and file working-class Democrats, let alone swing-state undecideds. Harris and her advisors know that.

Ah well, if genocide isn't an important issue to Democrats, then who cares?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So why would it make anyone else vote for Trump?

it is more them not voting and encouraging others to do the same.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bonded

She is already on record calling for a ceasefire and ending the tragedies in Gaza. What do the protesters want, her to say screw Israel?

Probably anything but "Shut up or you'll get Trump elected."

Did liberals really learn nothing from 2016? Chastising voters is a dog#### strategy to get your candidate elected.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bonded

it is more them not voting and encouraging others to do the same.

Do you really believe that a significant segment of the population saw that protest and went "Hmmm....I was gonna vote for Harris, but now I think I'll just stay home?"

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

When the hell did peacefully protesting turn into organizing people to not vote for a candidate? Is everyone so existentially terrified of Trump that all rational thought has left their body?

They were literally chanting “we won’t vote”. If they were chanting “stop the killing” they might have gotten a different response.

[Azure]

The majority of Americans now do not agree with Israeli's actions in Gaza.

So the continued support from the Biden administration is not even in line with the majority of people who are going to vote in the election in November.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

As someone who has posted extensively how Citizens United v. FEC allowed corporate America to take control of the government & lobbying world you sure are pretty delusional when it comes to a minority group's position & power on how to enact change.

Not delusional at all. It works. It's how politics in the United States works. Citizens United broke the system, so if you want to win you better learn to play based on the new rules.

But just to be clear, you are saying that the anti-genocide protesters should STFU and form a PAC, and then go lobby the government to enact change?

Yup. Unfortunately, that is the way this country has evolved. Large protests do nothing. Small protests don't even register and are considered a nuisance. If you're a small interest use money to your advantage.

There is no way on this planet you actually believe this is going to make any difference, or actually think that the protesters have a hope of accomplishing this.

But standing on the corner with a carboard sign, or disrupting traffic, or being a ####ing idiot at an event, is sure to make a difference? You're the one who is delusional.

Effectively you just want them to STFU because they are protesting against your team, and you don't actually give a #### about the genocide when it makes the Democrats look bad.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

I said learn how the system works and engage it. Protest is dead in the US. It just annoys people and turns more away from your cause than to it. Also, politicians don't bow to people holding cardboard signs, they bow to those who contribute to their campaign. Haven't you learned anything since the passage of Citizens United? But yeah, #### you're stupid sign and your stupid chant. Strategies from the 1960s don't work in the 2020s.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

What's worse than people dying? Even more people dying. That's what's worse. And if you don't think the additional deaths mean anything because "it was already genocide anyway", I don't know what to say to you.

You know what else is worse than genocide? Letting climate change get out of control and reach civilization-ending levels. Because at that point we no longer have a viable planet to live on, and everything, even genocide, becomes a moot point.



Only two people have any chance of winning this election, Harris and Trump. Which outcome is best for society?

Yes the electoral system sucks. But there is no way to change it, at least not in the next 88 days.

And yes it's up to pro-Israel Democrats to vote for Harris regardless of what they believe or what her stance is. But at the end of the day, you are not anyone else, you are you, you can only control you. If you were a pro-Israel Democrat and Harris went full pro-Palestine, I'd be urging you with the exact same level of urgency to vote for Harris.

Climate change is worse than genocide?