08-08-2024, 04:08 PM
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#18421
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Lifetime In Suspension
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When the hell did peacefully protesting turn into organizing people to not vote for a candidate? Is everyone so existentially terrified of Trump that all rational thought has left their body?
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08-08-2024, 04:10 PM
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#18422
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
But see - and I don't know what Cliff meant by "not serious people" - this would fall into my concept of "unserious". Why do you want to hear the nominee acknowledge that? Just her acknowledgment, without further action, accomplishes nothing and makes no one's life materially better - and I can see the argument that empty rhetoric in a political speech with no intention of acting on that rhetoric is worse than not saying anything at all. I mean, if Harris said "the oppression of Palestinians by the brutal Netanyahu regime must end immediately", maybe the people who agree with that feel good for a minute, but is that the "pragmatic goal" of a serious person? I would think you'd want her to actually DO something. And then the question becomes, what is that thing, and is this sort of behaviour more likely to make her do it?
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You don't think it would have probably satiated a few more people if she said something like "If elected, I intend to negotiate a ceasefire and end this bloodshed" vs. "You're gonna get Trump elected if you keep doing this?"
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08-08-2024, 04:11 PM
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#18423
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wins 10 internets
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: slightly to the left
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfotiu
I'd imagine there are quite a few women, black people, poor people, immigrants, lgbtq people who's lives were made materially worse by the last Trump presidency would find these protests to be quite elitist if they thought they increased the chances of him getting a second term.
I've seen interviews with people from those groups saying things like I wish I had the luxury of being able to only support the perfect candidate who aligned with all my views.
Sure, blame Harris if she loses. But if a progressive left white guy college student doesn't vote for her and/or organizes others not to vote for her over this or another progressive issue, then they have basically turned their backs on all those groups.
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This is what really bugs me about the hardline protestors, they claim to want equality but put Palestinian lives above all others. People in the LGBTQ community will have to endure massive persecution if Trump gets back in power, and they would likely face imprisonment or death if they even set foot in a place like Gaza, but apparently their lives aren't as important politically
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08-08-2024, 04:11 PM
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#18424
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
Shouldn’t that be Harris’ problem to solve?
I’m pretty sure in every election it’s up to the candidates to get themselves elected and, if there are people they need to get elected who may not, to listen to their voices and address their concerns.
Since when does it fall on the population to put their concerns aside and fall in line?
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It always falls on the population to take a holistic view of the situation in front of them and make the most sensible choice. In this case, keeping Trump out of power is the only sensible choice. You might think it's Kamala's duty to do exactly what you want to earn your vote, but unfortunately it is impossible for her to do that without suffering serious electoral consequences. There are many people in America who are so pro-Israel that it will affect their vote if she gets too bold in her messaging. Harris is caught in a bind here, either alienate pro-Israel voters or alienate pro-Palestine voters. She's doing what she can to strike a balance and alienate as few people as possible. Protesters heckling her at her rallies is making it extremely hard for her to strike a balance.
Hyper-fixating on Gaza alone, and pushing aside all other considerations, is the road to hell. Paved with good intentions as it may be, it's still the road to hell. If global average temperatures blow way past 2 degrees rise, the consequences of it are likely to make what's happening in Gaza look very small by comparison.
I guess I just don't know what Harris needs to do to satisfy the protesters. She has already acknowledged that the situation in Gaza is unacceptable and Israel needs to stop killing civilians. She has called for a ceasefire and for more aid to be allowed in. To push any further into the anti-Israel sentiment would mean fracturing the party and her support base, and likely throwing the election to Trump. That's something she simply can't do, and you shouldn't be expecting her to do that.
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08-08-2024, 04:11 PM
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#18425
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda
This is what really bugs me about the hardline protestors, they claim to want equality but put Palestinian lives above all others.
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And we've hit our first strawman of the day. Congrats!
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08-08-2024, 04:12 PM
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#18426
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
You're acting as if there weren't complaints and abuse of protestors during the civil rights movement. Almost every single example of protest is met by a collection of dickheads saying "I don't have an issue with protests. I just wish they'd do it in a way that doesn't inconvenience me."
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Times have changed. Dramatically. The nation is protest fatigued. I don't know whether it was the BLM movement, the Alt-Right/Nazi movement, or the January 6th ####fest, but Americans are just done with protests and protesters. It is an ineffective way of swaying opinion to your side at the moment. As someone else said, read the room before thinking of protesting because it will turn off more people than it sway in this country.
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08-08-2024, 04:13 PM
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#18427
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Had an idea!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor
It was a bit condescending, and honestly sounded like something Hillary Clinton would have said. I'm not saying most Americans agree with the protesters, but the ones that might have sympathy to their cause are ones she needs to turn out to vote.
Harris is ultimately not a strong candidate based on her history and what we've seen of her campaign abilities. Probably her best chance to win is to maintain the feel good/breath of fresh air sort of vibes she has going right now, and the kind of tenor she showed there goes against that. Biden's softer approach would be more effective than the Hillary Clinton-esque "vote for me or else" approach.
There are a enough people that dislike Trump, but that will still vote for him if they don't like the Democratic candidate. So maintaining the likability edge is important. I can't imagine many people who are still undecided at this point are giving a ton of thought to policy.
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Interesting take, because as someone who thinks Harris is a complete buffoon I actually liked her response.
But you are probably not wrong in terms of how this plays overall.
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08-08-2024, 04:14 PM
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#18428
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Had an idea!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
Exactly. Purity policing and denunciation of compromise are all well and good to energize activist groups, raise awareness, and earn social media likes. With this issue, at a Democratic rally, they’re worse than useless. The protestors are so immersed in their activist culture that they don’t seem to recognize how ineffective their tactics are when it comes to real-world politics. They’re not serious people.
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As was mentioned a page ago and by the Netanyahu, they are in fact useful idiots.
Funny how everyone agrees with Netanyahu now.
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08-08-2024, 04:15 PM
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#18429
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald
Times have changed. Dramatically. The nation is protest fatigued. I don't know whether it was the BLM movement, the Alt-Right/Nazi movement, or the January 6th ####fest, but Americans are just done with protests and protesters. It is an ineffective way of swaying opinion to your side at the moment. As someone else said, read the room before thinking of protesting because it will turn off more people than it sway in this country.
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So just STFU and hope for the best?
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08-08-2024, 04:15 PM
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#18430
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald
Completely disagree. Support for Palestine is so low that it won't sway anyone how the protesters are treated. The average person in the US is tired of protesters on almost every subject and view them as the lunatic fringe. You can thank the media for that and their piss poor coverage of issues and educating the electorate on the things they need to understand. You're not changing minds by being disruptive in events like this. People came to hear and see their candidate of choice and don't like those things disrupted. Democrats are too polite to do much about it but shout them down. Republicans? Those protesters would leave bloodied. After the past few years, Americans are just fed up with protests.
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If it's a one off, or very occasional thing, then no I don't think it'll have an impact. But it's still something that can only really negatively impact her. Acting smug and visibly raising your eyebrows at a few protesters isn't going to gain votes, but it might potentially lose some. There's no real upside to it, while if that's the tone they continue with, it could depress support among some demographics that she needs to turn out.
Personally, I just think she got frustrated with them and it will probably be a relatively isolated incident. She was initially polite (which conveniently got cut out of most of the soundbites) before acting a bit more condescending when they wouldn't shut up. But that's something the campaign should have anticipated and they should have a planned response to that sort of thing.
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08-08-2024, 04:16 PM
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#18431
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Participant 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod
It always falls on the population to take a holistic view of the situation in front of them and make the most sensible choice. In this case, keeping Trump out of power is the only sensible choice. You might think it's Kamala's duty to do exactly what you want to earn your vote, but unfortunately it is impossible for her to do that without suffering serious electoral consequences. There are many people in America who are so pro-Israel that it will affect their vote if she gets too bold in her messaging. Harris is caught in a bind here, either alienate pro-Israel voters or alienate pro-Palestine voters. She's doing what she can to strike a balance and alienate as few people as possible. Protesters heckling her at her rallies is making it extremely hard for her to strike a balance.
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But you know that’s not actually how it works, right?
That’s why people still vote for Trump, other, or don’t vote at all?
Like, I get saying “we must come together and ignore our differences and choose what is best for society!” but that just ignores the fact that people have very different ideas of what that entails.
And, to play devil’s advocate here, isn’t it up to pro-Israel Democrats to vote for Harris regardless of what they believe or what her stance is? If she changed it and went more pro-Palestine, would be having the same conversation and suggesting everyone else just needs to fall in line?
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08-08-2024, 04:16 PM
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#18432
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wins 10 internets
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: slightly to the left
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
You don't think it would have probably satiated a few more people if she said something like "If elected, I intend to negotiate a ceasefire and end this bloodshed" vs. "You're gonna get Trump elected if you keep doing this?"
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If she says that, she probably loses the election. Jewish lobby groups are still incredibly powerful in the US. Cori Bush just lost her seat in a primary election because she was too anti-Israel, and her opponent was heavily funded by pro-Isreal PACs. Any sort of comment from Kamala telling Israel to "end the bloodshed" likely drives all of that support and money to Trump
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08-08-2024, 04:17 PM
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#18433
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
You don't think it would have probably satiated a few more people if she said something like "If elected, I intend to negotiate a ceasefire and end this bloodshed" vs. "You're gonna get Trump elected if you keep doing this?"
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I thought the end goal was to bring about fewer dead Palestinian children, rather than satiating the most people? I don't honestly know which of those statements would satiate the most people; the former would certainly have satiated some people but it also would have pissed a bunch of people off. I suspect the campaign doesn't think it would be a net positive in that regard or she'd have already said it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
I don’t think it’s as binary as any criticism helps Trump.
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I think we need to distinguish between different acts of "criticism". There's writing an article for the New Yorker about how you think a prospective Harris / Walz administration should take a harder line against Israel; there's going to a town hall and asking the candidate if they support a ceasefire and why or why not; there's organizing or participating in a march in your city in opposition to Israel's actions and the US Government's complicity in those actions, there's taking a bus full of people hostage and threatening to blow up the bus if the US doesn't cease aid to Israel, and there's showing up to a rally in Detroit and trying to shout a slogan over top of the candidate while they're giving a speech. All of these things have similar goals, but each has a higher or lower likelihood of helping to achieving those goals, and some might be different degrees of good or bad things to do.
What we're talking about here is showing up to a rally in Detroit and trying to shout a slogan over top of the candidate while they're giving a speech. That specific act of criticism just... isn't where you'd want to be on the spectrum of "good and effective" criticism.
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Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 08-08-2024 at 04:19 PM.
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08-08-2024, 04:17 PM
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#18434
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Had an idea!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod
Taking actions that increase the likelihood of Trump getting elected, makes it impossible for the person to claim any moral high ground.
Causing disruptions at Harris rallies will not save Palestinian lives. Helping Harris get elected (keeping Trump away from power) is the only way to save Palestinian lives. With Harris there will be more humanitarian aid getting in to Gaza, and fewer offensive weapons sent to Israel compared to Trump.
Sometimes in life you have to realize that the ideal outcome is not available to you. And there's nothing you can do to make it available. This is one of those situations.
In the debate between Biden and Trump, Trump used the term "Palestinian" as a slur. Shows you how much he values Palestinian lives. Remember that he moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem (a giant middle finger to Palestinians), and when asked about what Israel should do about Gaza, he said "finish the job quickly" in other words go scorched earth.
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I literally don't get this.
Harris has been part of the administration that allowed this 'genocide' to happen. Now you're saying people should not protest against her because somehow Trump is worse? Still waiting for everyone to answer as to what is worse than genocide because right now especially your reply to this entire topic as someone who has been screaming genocide for months makes it seem like you only call it genocide if it supports your political cause, and excuse it when it isn't beneficial to your cause to call it genocide.
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08-08-2024, 04:20 PM
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#18435
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
So just STFU and hope for the best?
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Find better ways to be an activist than being a disruptive ######nozzle. You know what really works in this country? Money. Create a PAC and start collecting money and donating that money to candidates who will forward your cause. THAT is new the American way of protest. Every dollar is a vote, so get the public to vote for your issue and buy the politicians just like everyone else does.
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08-08-2024, 04:21 PM
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#18436
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damn onions
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald
You'd have to be pretty ####ing dense not to recognize that Trump being elected pretty much means the choke collar is getting taken of Israel and there will be nothing to stop Palestinians from being exterminated. Do you know what the support for Palestine is with Republicans over the age of 30? Just over 4% on average, and that drops to 3% over the age of 50. For a party that governs to its base, the elimination of Palestinians is not even a concern for Republicans. In fact, they may see it as a means to boost support.
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Yeah, it’d be pretty worrying. I think if the choke collar comes off Israel then it leads to Iran building (and using) nuclear weapons on Israel.
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08-08-2024, 04:23 PM
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#18437
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
But you know that’s not actually how it works, right?
That’s why people still vote for Trump, other, or don’t vote at all?
Like, I get saying “we must come together and ignore our differences and choose what is best for society!” but that just ignores the fact that people have very different ideas of what that entails.
And, to play devil’s advocate here, isn’t it up to pro-Israel Democrats to vote for Harris regardless of what they believe or what her stance is? If she changed it and went more pro-Palestine, would be having the same conversation and suggesting everyone else just needs to fall in line?
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That's not really the equivalent. If a pro-Israel didn't like a switch to a more Palestinian friendly stance, and voted for Trump, they may be turning their backs on other policies they care about as a Democrat, but at least they aren't voting against their interests on this topic.
If I saw a bunch of white nationalist anti-abortion protesters protesting Trump and saying they won't vote for him unless he promises an abortion ban and have a more racist platform, then I would ridicule them for hurting their own best interests.
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08-08-2024, 04:24 PM
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#18438
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda
If she says that, she probably loses the election. Jewish lobby groups are still incredibly powerful in the US. Cori Bush just lost her seat in a primary election because she was too anti-Israel, and her opponent was heavily funded by pro-Isreal PACs. Any sort of comment from Kamala telling Israel to "end the bloodshed" likely drives all of that support and money to Trump
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First off, 1 in 3 American Jews are critical of Israel. Second, the states with the highest Jewish population are New York, California, and Florida. They're not losing New York or California, and Florida is strongly leaning GOP.
As I said, the majority of Americans support a ceasefire. That's a very middle of the road position to take that doesn't make you sound like an ####### the way that "Shut up or you'll get Trump elected" does.
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08-08-2024, 04:25 PM
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#18439
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Had an idea!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald
Find better ways to be an activist than being a disruptive ######nozzle. You know what really works in this country? Money. Create a PAC and start collecting money and donating that money to candidates who will forward your cause. THAT is new the American way of protest. Every dollar is a vote, so get the public to vote for your issue and buy the politicians just like everyone else does.
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As someone who has posted extensively how Citizens United v. FEC allowed corporate America to take control of the government & lobbying world you sure are pretty delusional when it comes to a minority group's position & power on how to enact change.
But just to be clear, you are saying that the anti-genocide protesters should STFU and form a PAC, and then go lobby the government to enact change?
There is no way on this planet you actually believe this is going to make any difference, or actually think that the protesters have a hope of accomplishing this.
Effectively you just want them to STFU because they are protesting against your team, and you don't actually give a #### about the genocide when it makes the Democrats look bad.
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08-08-2024, 04:25 PM
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#18440
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald
Find better ways to be an activist than being a disruptive ######nozzle. You know what really works in this country? Money. Create a PAC and start collecting money and donating that money to candidates who will forward your cause. THAT is new the American way of protest. Every dollar is a vote, so get the public to vote for your issue and buy the politicians just like everyone else does.
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Really embodying the white moderate MLK wrote about in his letter from Birmingham jail.
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