American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by devo22

this Trump press conference is predictably a train wreck. Nothing but lies, self-pity, weird bragging about crowd sizes and an almost hilarious saltiness about the fact he isn't running against Biden anymore. That man is clearly not well.

He mentioned having a sofa and it not being there anymore.

These reporters need to step up haha

[MoneyGuy]

Trump runs out of money for his poorly attended rallies. Disguises rally as a news conference for the free airtime. Announces no platform (haha, as if!). Spews more lies, insults and conspiracy theories. Whines, gripes.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Whynotnow

Sure, they aren’t above criticism. But saying you won’t vote for her because you feel she is too pro Israel or disrupting her campaign is gonna get you something worse for your cause. She has zero room to move further on this unless she just wants to hand over the keys to the White House.

Their best bet is to get behind her and work the issue from the inside and hopefully with the winner. I know my analysis is purely a political one, and asking a major concession from someone.

This is one of the differences between the two parties. Republicans are slewing to the right to their most extreme elements. They accuse the dems of being too progressive and beholden to their extremists when the evidence is pretty clear they don’t do that.

Except one party has clearly been in charge while Israel has carried out the most aggressive military campaign in many, many years resulting in what many on the left are calling genocide, and you're sitting here saying 'well the GOP would be worse.'

So there is worse than genocide?

You're twisting yourself up trying to explain this.

If you believe that what is happening in Gaza is genocide, admit that the Democrats have been 100% complicit in committing genocide with Israel, specifically VP Harris as President of the Senate, who happened to authorize sending Israel the weapons and resources to help Israel commit the genocide.

I mean it either is or isn't genocide, and if it is, surely the Democrats as the party in charge are guilty of supporting it, no?

So if you support the Democrats you support genocide.

That is what the protesters are protesting about. Are they wrong?

Assuming they are not paid agents of Iran.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In the US you really only have two choices. The others are just vanity votes.

And the hard left seems to criticize the Democrats a lot more than the Republicans, which is counterproductive.

You mean in regards to Israel?

They do because the Democrats are the party in charge.

Also, the policy stance on Israel by both the Republicans and Democrats has been the same for decades. Its amazing that people here think one party is different than the other on that issue.

Sure, they might say different things to the media, but actual policy has been very similar going back a long time.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Trump runs out of money for his poorly attended rallies. Disguises rally as a news conference for the free airtime. Announces no platform (haha, as if!). Spews more lies, insults and conspiracy theories. Whines, gripes.

He actually looks like he just jumped out of bed.

How anyone can suppourt this lunatic is crazy.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bonded

How about they go protest at Trump events. It’s not even they can’t criticize Kamala. It’s more about being effective on meeting their goals.

They are protesting about what they believe to be genocide, and doing it at an event for VP Harris who has literally been part of the administration that has supported the genocide.

I didn't realize Trump has been in any position to make decisions since Oct 7 that effects what happens in Israel.

You seem to have your head stuck pretty far in the sand in regards to the fact that the Democrats are actually in support of helping Israel and have been for a long time.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Except one party has clearly been in charge while Israel has carried out the most aggressive military campaign in many, many years resulting in what many on the left are calling genocide, and you're sitting here saying 'well the GOP would be worse.'

If only things were as black and white as you make things to be, but they are not. There is a lot more nuance to what the Biden administration is doing and the legacy laws which provide support to Israel.

The Biden administration (hose pesky Democrats) have to abide by the 2016 agreement where the United States will $3.8 billion yearly in military aid to Israel. This deal will not expire until 2026. His hands are tied on this issue.

At the same time the Biden admin has placed restrictions on the weapons that can be sold to Israel, limiting the munitions by size and potential impact. 500 and 2,000 pound munitions requests are being rebuffed. The Democrats themselves also held back on selling Israel 50 F-15s, but signed off in late June as the Biden admin tries to walk the tightrope between supporting Israel and limiting it's capacity to harm civilians.

The issue is way more nuanced and there are a lot more politics involved from the Democratic perspective. The Republicans? Give them all the weapons they want and let them kill the brown people. They don't care as long as weapons contracts are fulfilled and Israel is supported.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Azure

They are protesting about what they believe to be genocide, and doing it at an event for VP Harris who has literally been part of the administration that has supported the genocide.

I didn't realize Trump has been in any position to make decisions since Oct 7 that effects what happens in Israel.

You seem to have your head stuck pretty far in the sand in regards to the fact that the Democrats are actually in support of helping Israel and have been for a long time.

I'm really not. The base case as I see it is that the US government has to support Israel until 2026 and will continue to support Israel because of the geopolitics in the region. I think the Republicans would have been even more vocal in their support of Israel and their actions in Gaza. JD Vance blamed Biden for impeding Israel from ending the war quicker and he wasn't implying a peace accord.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by rubecube

God forbid people make candidates earn their votes on issues that matter to them as opposed to consistently being told to vote for the lesser of two evils.

God forbid they have a little foresight and apply pressure after their preferred party actually wins. It is like BLM refusing to endorse Harris because of the nomination process.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

If only things were as black and white as you make things to be, but they are not. There is a lot more nuance to what the Biden administration is doing and the legacy laws which provide support to Israel.

The Biden administration (hose pesky Democrats) have to abide by the 2016 agreement where the United States will $3.8 billion yearly in military aid to Israel. This deal will not expire until 2026. His hands are tied on this issue.

There is also the 2008 law which requires all military aid to Israel to be considered through the lens of guaranteeing Israel a "qualitative military edge" over its enemies.

To be fair to Azure's point, this legal requirement was sponsored by a Democrat and passed by a fully Democrat-controlled Congress, to be signed into law by Republican George W. Bush.

Were I a one-issue voter, concerned solely with the welfare of Palestinians I would probably be protesting the Biden-Harris government as well. Though I'd be hoping for the Harris-Walz ticket to win the election, I probably wouldn't be planning to vote for them. I imagine that Palestinian-supportive protest groups see the Democrats as much more receptive to, and capable of being influenced by, their message.

They're yelling and screaming and trying to influence the policy of the group that they might be willing to support in order to get a policy that they can support. As opposed to yelling at a group of people who aren't going to listen to them at all.

Unfortunate for those of us who are not single-issue people and hoping for a Harris-Walz victory, but it's probably the most influential thing for these protesters to do.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bonded

God forbid they have a little foresight and apply pressure after their preferred party actually wins. It is like BLM refusing to endorse Harris because of the nomination process.

Yes, because elected officials are notorious for being more likely to cater to opposition groups after they've obtained power.

[Azure]

Oh so now the issue is more nuanced that we all understand, but as long as those pesky Republicans don't get into power, the genocide is acceptable because the Democrats really don't like it and are trying their best to not allow it.

You know, despite actually being the party in charge. Literally. While the so called genocide happened.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yes, because elected officials are notorious for being more likely to cater to opposition groups after they've obtained power.

Not only that, but there is literally 50+ years of actually EVIDENCE of the Democrats supporting Israel.

But hey, this time its different. It really is. Believe me. It actually is going to be different this time.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh so now the issue is more nuanced that we all understand, but as long as those pesky Republicans don't get into power, the genocide is acceptable because the Democrats really don't like it and are trying their best to not allow it.

You know, despite actually being the party in charge. Literally. While the so called genocide happened.

It's such a stupid argument that immediately falls apart by looking at the rhetoric and posturing the Biden admin has done in defense of Israel since the whole ordeal began.

What does the 2016 law have to do with actions like this?

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/08/asia/...hnk/index.html

[Paulie Walnuts]

Umm Democrats or Republicans the core fabric of the US has always been to suppourt Israel.

[rubecube]

Jesus Christ. I just saw the clip.

"If you want Donald Trump to win then keep saying that. Otherwise, I'm speaking."

Protestors: "Children are being murdered!"

Kamala: "STFU!"

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by driveway

There is also the 2008 law which requires all military aid to Israel to be considered through the lens of guaranteeing Israel a "qualitative military edge" over its enemies.

To be fair to Azure's point, this legal requirement was sponsored by a Democrat and passed by a fully Democrat-controlled Congress, to be signed into law by Republican George W. Bush.

It’s that law that is allowing Biden to be more contemplative and restrictive of what he signs off on. Without that he’d have to sign or veto what comes to his desk from congress. He has to be careful in what he does or he is going to be labeled as being anti-Israel and run over by the Republicans. Governing is hard and requires compromise. When that doesn’t happen we get the Trump admin and ####ed up governments.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I actually think Biden's responses in those kinds of situations have generally been better than Harris' was, so she comes off looking worse. He normally concedes that the protesters have a legitimate point and that what's going on is horrible, whereas Harris just sounds condescending.

And like it or not, these things are going to happen. People can sit back and say "it's a binary choice and these people are idiots if they bolster Trump through their actions," but that doesn't change the fact that Harris needs to be able to respond well. But like you say, she's not a very strong candidate. They really just need to limit her off the cuff stuff and try to play out the clock on the campaign and hope she doesn't have too many missteps. If she plays to her strengths and sticks mostly to scripted stuff in friendly environments, this election is definitely winnable on a combination of vibes and voters' dislike for Trump. Republicans are flailing right now, so as long as they don't get any ammo, Harris stands a good chance.

What’s wrong with how Harris responded? The chants were drowning out her speech, and it didn’t seem like they were going to stop anytime soon. She had to regain control of the event. Behaving like the adult in the room looked like it won her more support at the rally than it lost her, never mind nationally.

[rubecube]

Also, this is classic Democrats tripping over their own dicks stuff. How do you not have something pre-emptively prepared for anti-genocide protestors in one of the most pro-Palestine areas of the country?

Just terrible political instincts and strategy. Embarrassing.

[Azure]

In 2014, both Democrats and Republicans voted overwhelmingly to pass the Strategic Partnership Act and upgrade Israel’s status to “major strategic partner.” With this mutually beneficial law, the United States and Israel have expanded cooperation in a variety of spheres including national security, intelligence, homeland security, cybersecurity, energy, water, agriculture and alternative fuel technologies.

In 2016, Democratic President Obama signed a historic 10-year Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the United States and Israel – the third such MOU in U.S. history and the largest U.S. aid package to Israel of all time. The annual security assistance ensures that Israel can defend itself, by itself, against mounting threats across the region. The MOU pledges a total of $38 billion in aid to Israel over a 10-year period.

Recently, House Democrats – along with their Republican colleagues – overwhelmingly passed the Ileana Ros-Lehtinen United States-Israel Security Assistance Authorization Act of 2018. The bipartisan measure codifies the new MOU and authorizes agreed-upon increases in Israel’s security assistance as well as new U.S.-Israel cooperation in cybersecurity and space.

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-b...orting-israel/

I mean I can find more examples in case its not clear enough.