Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

It's evil and cowardice to hide behind women and children as well.

It no longer works to embed Hamas fighters,rockets and missiles in the schools and hospitals, those days are over, surrender, return the hostages and the bombings will stop. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.

No ####. No one is saying it isn't. Hamas doesn't care. They don't even care if it doesn't work down to their last fighter, they will still do it. And Israel will still play the useful idiot and murder innocent people, harming Israel's reputation and ability to defend itself by inflaming tensions and doing what Hamas is happy to see, more attacks on Israel. I'm not sure why it is so hard to understand.


Murdering innocent people leads to more dead everyone. Stop ####ing doing it, and stop justifying it here. So dumb.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by kirant

However, my point is that the source of the argument and claims should in no way affect the validity of the argument.

What you wrote above is quite literally the definition of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Contrary to popular usage on the internet from people who are trying to sound smart, ad hominem does not mean a personal insult. It's a logical fallacy where you dismiss someone's arguments because of some personal attribute about the person, not the merits of their arguments themselves.

"John Oliver can't have anything relevant to say about the Israel-Palestine conflict because he's a comedian!" is a textbook ad hominem fallacy.

[Fuzz]

Zelinski could never run a country, because he's a comedian!

[Harry Lime]

Should we run under the assumption that the reason Israel continues to attack in this manner, is that they are trying to force the Palestinians to turn against the hamas fighters living amongst them, and turn them in (instead of being a human shield, themselves)?

I can't think of another reason this has gone on so long.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Should we run under the assumption that the reason Israel continues to attack in this manner, is that they are trying to force the Palestinians to turn against the hamas fighters living amongst them, and turn them in (instead of being a human shield, themselves)?

I can't think of another reason this has gone on so long.

They may pay lip service to that, but it's already been proven to be an innefective strategy. How do you expect those starving, injured, desperate people to have the ability to organize and turn against Hamas, even if they did really want to? And is that wise, given you have an Israeli government with members saying this?

Spoiler!

https://truthaboutpalestine.com/


So, uh, you've got people defending you, and people calling to wipe you out. Do you turn in the people fighting back over to the side that just "accidentally" wiped out half your family while calling you inhumane names and withholding the flow of food and aid and bombing your hospitals?



Anyway, that site has a load of facts and stuff to read and watch, something for Pointman to really dig his teeth into, if he's as wise as he claims to be. Or he can remain ignorant, his call.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Doesn't give them the greenlight to just bomb that school if some hamas members are also there

Not sure why that's so hard for you to understand.

Still waiting on that apology where you were adamant you didn't say something and called me names but then disappeared when I quoted what you said word for word.

As long as Hamas continues to hold, rape and kill the hostages they absolutely have the greenlight to hunt them down wherever they hide, nobody likes it but history has shown this over and over as the only way to get victory.

If you have a better and safer plan to get rid of these savage terrorists and get them to give up innocent hostages i'm sure the IDF would like to hear it.

And Lol for an apology, you called me a white supremacist and a racist for a post that wasn't even close to those meanings, you owe me the apology dumbbell.

[PepsiFree]

If or when the hostages are returned, it will be as a result of a ceasefire deal that both sides keep finding reasons to avoid or escalate out of possibility, not because Israel bombed every last school and killed another five or six figures worth of civilians.

I have trouble believing the people who claim to be most interested in seeing the hostages released are not just using it as an excuse to justify the killing of thousands of innocent people, considering their desire for elimination at all costs and complete rejection of a ceasefire/hostage deal goes against what the actual families of the actual hostages want, and is now going against what Israel’s biggest backers (including the US) want.

Wanting more death over a deal at this point is a universally reviled opinion that seems to be almost exclusively popular in Israel’s ultranationalist circles.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

As long as Hamas continues to hold, rape and kill the hostages they absolutely have the greenlight to hunt them down wherever they hide, nobody likes it but history has shown this over and over as the only way to get victory.

If you have a better and safer plan to get rid of these savage terrorists and get them to give up innocent hostages i'm sure the IDF would like to hear it.

And Lol for an apology, you called me a white supremacist and a racist for a post that wasn't even close to those meanings, you owe me the apology dumbbell.

Decrease the acceptable numbers of civilian casualties per Hamas casualties. Ie if this was a Hamas member in Iran what would the acceptable number of civilian casualties be?

And secondly increase the number of acceptable Israeli military casualties to reduce less accurate forms of attacks.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If or when the hostages are returned, it will be as a result of a ceasefire deal that both sides keep finding reasons to avoid or escalate out of possibility, not because Israel bombed every last school and killed another five or six figures worth of civilians.

I have trouble believing the people who claim to be most interested in seeing the hostages released are not just using it as an excuse to justify the killing of thousands of innocent people, considering their desire for elimination at all costs and complete rejection of a ceasefire/hostage deal goes against what the actual families of the actual hostages want, and is now going against what Israel’s biggest backers (including the US) want.

Wanting more death over a deal at this point is a universally reviled opinion that seems to be almost exclusively popular in Israel’s ultranationalist circles.

Problem is, any deal that allows Hamas to keep control over Gaza is a non starter, that would be like the allies in WWII leaving Germany and Hitler in power if he freed the prisoners from the concentration camps.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Problem is, any deal that allows Hamas to keep control over Gaza is a non starter, that would be like the allies in WWII leaving Germany and Hitler in power if he freed the prisoners from the concentration camps.

Well that doesn't have to be an impediment:

But even as it is pummelled militarily, the meetings of Hamas politicians with officials from the Fatah party that controls Palestinian politics in the Israeli-occupied West Bank point to the group's aim of shaping the post-war order in the Palestinian territories, according to a source familiar with conversations within Hamas.

The person, like other unnamed officials in this story, declined to be named because they weren't authorized to discuss sensitive matters with the media.

Hamas, which ruled Gaza before the war, recognises it cannot be part of any internationally recognised new government of the Palestinian territories when fighting in the enclave eventually ends, said the source.

Nonetheless, it wants Fatah to agree to a new technocratic administration for the West Bank and Gaza as part of a wider political deal, the source and senior Hamas official Basim Naim said.

"We are speaking about political partnership and political unity to restructure the Palestinian entity," Naim, who attended the previous round of China talks, said in an interview.

"Whether Hamas is in the government or outside it, that is not a prime demand of the movement and it doesn't see it a condition for any reconciliation," he said. Naim, like much of Hamas' political leadership, operates in exile outside of Gaza.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ah-2024-06-05/


I'm not sure the Israeli government is fond of this, because it means they'd have to stop killing innocent people.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Problem is, any deal that allows Hamas to keep control over Gaza is a non starter, that would be like the allies in WWII leaving Germany and Hitler in power if he freed the prisoners from the concentration camps.

Lol what a terrible analogy.

Are you seriously comparing Oct 7th where more than half of the people killed were killed by Israel themselves under their Hannibal directive to the holocaust?

Give your head a shake. Hamas will remain in power and are still in power. Israel wants that as well. Its in their best interest. Netanyahu has stated that from his own mouth.

[Harry Lime]

What in the holy hell fox network space laser rabbit hole, is the Hannibal directive.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Lol what a terrible analogy.

Are you seriously comparing Oct 7th where more than half of the people killed were killed by Israel themselves under their Hannibal directive to the holocaust?

Give your head a shake. Hamas will remain in power and are still in power. Israel wants that as well. Its in their best interest. Netanyahu has stated that from his own mouth.

Do you have a source that the IDF are responsible for half the deaths on October 7th? I ask because I have not seen that reported anywhere

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

What in the holy hell fox network space laser rabbit hole, is the Hannibal directive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...1-fdbe45520000

[Harry Lime]

I don't click random links. Concerned about what ads my phone will start spitting out. What exactly is it?

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I don't click random links. Concerned about what ads my phone will start spitting out. What exactly is it?

Wikipedia isn't a random link. You can also Google it.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I don't click random links. Concerned about what ads my phone will start spitting out. What exactly is it?

The gist is that in certain situations the IDF will use lethal force to prevent hostages from being taken even if that means the hostages die as it is preferable to the state of Israel diplomaticly to not have to negotiate hostage returns which are popular among the public. The polciy was repealed in 2016 but there is eveidence that orders given were similar to the directive on Oct 7.

It’s worth reading the Wikipedia link and associated discussion and the sources provided and come to a conclusion. Is the 50% number touted by Zary well supported? Probably not, could it be that high? Yes. Were there vehicles that were known to have hostages in destroyed by the Israeli military without regard for the hostages inside? Almost certainly. Did the IDF order the vehicles containing hostages shot. I believe so but I think there is some room for debate here and they didn’t directly say shoot all vehicles. It’s also important to note the original Hannibal directive did not apply to civilians and the Hannibal directive was not in place on Oct 7.

The fog of war makes it difficult to ever know what went on.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Are you seriously comparing Oct 7th where more than half of the people killed were killed by Israel themselves under their Hannibal directive to the holocaust?

Now I know why you love Trump

[Harry Lime]

There is a very strong probability that hostages were killed by friendly fire as the hostile force retreated. That's just common sense.

To assign a deliberate action, and then assign a large number to that action, seems a little like an attempt to lessen the negative view of the atrocities committed that day.

I don't think that there was any immediate villainy on the part of Isreal in this conflict. I think that came later. There is probably no point in mudding the waters concerning the actions on October 7th. Not a fan of rewriting history to support a narrative.

But I'd probably go as far as believing 100% that hostages were killed in the retreat, by Israelis.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

There is a very strong probability that hostages were killed by friendly fire as the hostile force retreated. That's just common sense.

To assign a deliberate action, and then assign a large number to that action, seems a little like an attempt to lessen the negative view of the atrocities committed that day.

I don't think that there was any immediate villainy on the part of Isreal in this conflict. I think that came later. There is probably no point in mudding the waters concerning the actions on October 7th. Not a fan of rewriting history to support a narrative.

But I'd probably go as far as believing 100% that hostages were killed in the retreat, by Israelis.

A "little like"? How about claiming that Israel killed 700 of its own citizens without any basis whatsoever for coming up with that figure.