Israel declares war on Hamas

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

John Oliver did an episode this week on Israel and the West Bank. I'm not sure how anyone could defend Israel or call them innocent after watching that. Wow. Provocative, illegal, evil, entitled, delusional, apartheid, are all words that come to mind. If you have Crave, well worth the watch, particularly for our blind Israel supporters.

I think the West Bank serves as direct proof of Israel's actions speaking far louder than words. The goal is ultimately to take everything. They believe it is their god given right, and how do you logically defuse that kind of motivation?

If the Palestinians took control over the entirety of the West Bank, would Israel have any kind of security guarantees? The vast majority of Israelis live in the Tel Aviv Jerusalem corridor, and there is no buffer between that and the West Bank. This is why settler activity is tolerated by the average Israeli. It creates a buffer between their major cities and the groups that have vowed to murder them.

The Israelis had previously offered to give back 95% of the West Bank, with additional land swaps.

The idea that this is a one sided colonialist conflict is totally false. The more Palestinians commit acts of terror and threaten genocide, the less likely the average Israeli is going to want an independent terror state within metres of their major cities.

In 2002, the 72% of Israeli Jews supported a two state solution, and the Palestinians were offered that 95%+ deal shortly after that. After every round of violence that number falls. The goal of that violence is for Palestinians to have "everything". That is indeed Hamas', who are the elected representatives of the Palestinians, goal.

The expectation that Israel is going to negotiate against themselves, with threats of genocide on the other side, isn't realistic.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

If the Palestinians took control over the entirety of the West Bank, would Israel have any kind of security guarantees? The vast majority of Israelis live in the Tel Aviv Jerusalem corridor, and there is no buffer between that and the West Bank. This is why settler activity is tolerated by the average Israeli. It creates a buffer between their major cities and the groups that have vowed to murder them.

The Israelis had previously offered to give back 95% of the West Bank, with additional land swaps.

The idea that this is a one sided colonialist conflict is totally false. The more Palestinians commit acts of terror and threaten genocide, the less likely the average Israeli is going to want an independent terror state within metres of their major cities.

In 2002, the 72% of Israeli Jews supported a two state solution, and the Palestinians were offered that 95%+ deal shortly after that. After every round of violence that number falls. The goal of that violence is for Palestinians to have "everything". That is indeed Hamas', who are the elected representatives of the Palestinians, goal.

The expectation that Israel is going to negotiate against themselves, with threats of genocide on the other side, isn't realistic.

Please, just watch the episode if you can before making excuses. If you still support how Israel is treating human beings trying to survive on their own land after watching it, please come back and justify your humanity with whatever excuses you can muster. Until then, it's just denial. Here's a taster:


https://www.instagram.com/rulajebreal/reel/C-BUat_Sd8c/


Also, the bold bit is false for many reasons already discussed, but doubly so for the West Bank, since Hamas is NOT the elected representative of the People there(not that they are in Gaza, either). Meanwhile, Israel's democratically elected leaders are committing monstrous atrocities daily. You can see what they are by watching the episode. Or live in denial, whatever.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by blankall

The vast majority of Israelis live in the Tel Aviv Jerusalem corridor, and there is no buffer between that and the West Bank. This is why settler activity is tolerated by the average Israeli. It creates a buffer between their major cities and the groups that have vowed to murder them.

I agree with your statement, but I think it's a ridiculous stance by Israelis. If they want security in/around the West Bank, do it right. Letting gangs of Settlers run roughshod over Palestinian civilians with full support of the police and military is not how you achieve "security". The whole place is a highly productive terrorist farm.

Fair and just policing and use of military resources is the way to security, not infringing on the rights and lives of an entire group of people.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Good israeli policy. Keep moving the borders and then claim the new borders are a security threat and then rinse and repeat.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I agree with your statement, but I think it's a ridiculous stance by Israelis. If they want security in/around the West Bank, do it right. Letting gangs of Settlers run roughshod over Palestinian civilians with full support of the police and military is not how you achieve "security". The whole place is a highly productive terrorist farm.

Fair and just policing and use of military resources is the way to security, not infringing on the rights and lives of an entire group of people.

The average Israeli is nothing like the settler, having 8+ children, conservative in the West Bank. They tolerate the settlers out of valid concerns for their own security. The idea that Palestinians are the peaceful ones responding to Israeli violence is simply false. There are many factions, who receive a large portion of general support, who have always drawn a hard line in the sand about resistance to any kind of Israeli state and declared that they will use violence to achieve this goal.

The idea that militants were "created" in response to Israeli violence is false. For example, Hamas had their children in school programs where they were being taught to fire weapons and become martyrs. When you asked failed suicide bombers why they did what they did, the response is always to be a martyr and receive a harem of virgins in heaven.

And when Israel does ease their measure, they are typically not met with more violence. For example, Israel allows funds from Qatar to reach Gaza and allows 40,000 workers from Gaza in to Israel. Israel gets accused of "funding" Hamas and the intelligence from the workers is used to plan the Oct 7 attacks.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by blankall

The average Israeli is nothing like the settler, having 8+ children, conservative in the West Bank. They tolerate the settlers out of valid concerns for their own security.

Right, and I'm saying that's an asinine position. This is akin to Joe Irish Guy tolerating the IRA blowing up kids because the IRA motivations are aligned with their self interests.

Originally Posted by blankall

The idea that Palestinians are the peaceful ones responding to Israeli violence is simply false.

Right, and I never said that. However, terrorist recruitment is a lot more successful when you're dealing with kids who's parents and siblings were blown to tiny pieces, or who were kicked out of their homes by Settlers. I don't really understand how that is debatable.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Right, and I'm saying that's an asinine position. This is akin to Joe Irish Guy tolerating the IRA blowing up kids because the IRA motivations are aligned with their self interests.

It's nothing like that. The Palestinians are blowing up Israeli kids intentionally and then hiding behind their own kids.

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Right, and I never said that. However, terrorist recruitment is a lot more successful when you're dealing with kids who's parents and siblings were blown to tiny pieces, or who were kicked out of their homes by Settlers. I don't really understand how that is debatable.

From the Israeli perspective, terrorist recruitment is already at a 10/10, so they are better off trying to quell the existing terrorists.

Every time a Israeli politician has made a major move towards reconciliation they get bit in the ass. They entered the Oslo Accord, Arafat used that as a means to set up a network of terrorists across the West Bank. They withdrew from Gaza, which was relatively peaceful prior, and Hamas takes over and turns into one large death cult.

The idea that unlimited concessions on the Israeli side, without security guarantees, is the path to peace is simply false. There has to be an actual guarantee from both sides that provides security towards the other. Hamas was unwilling to make any such guarantee. No peace could be achieved as long as Hamas was in power. Obviously, Netanyahu isn't the guy to negotiate a peace deal either, but he's likely gone.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

The average Israeli is nothing like the settler, having 8+ children, conservative in the West Bank. They tolerate the settlers out of valid concerns for their own security. The idea that Palestinians are the peaceful ones responding to Israeli violence is simply false. There are many factions, who receive a large portion of general support, who have always drawn a hard line in the sand about resistance to any kind of Israeli state and declared that they will use violence to achieve this goal.

The world according to blankall where the poor average Israeli out of fear for their own safety has no choice out of fear for their own safety to sit back helplessly and watch the West Bank Settler violence. Violence enabled by and assisted by the IDF and the police.

IDF and Police under the govern of a government voted in by all the population.

Somehow all Gazans are guilty by default of supporting terrorism as they lived under Hamas rule voted in years ago but when it comes to the Israeli people and their government that continues to ignore international law and support ongoing terrorism in the West Bank its because the poor average Israeli is scared.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's nothing like that. The Palestinians are blowing up Israeli kids intentionally and then hiding behind their own kids.

And the Israelis are blowing to pieces, burning and shooting Palestinian kids intentionally and hiding behind their own government.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Peace is the solution I want, and the first step to peace is understanding. That means each side understanding each side. Isreali's are not without fear of the future, even if they are not innocent in creating a violent environment.

The so called "pro palestine" side on this forum is very understanding.

It's the side that supports the killing of innocent women and children and can never condemn israel for a single thing that needs to better understand.

[Just a guy]

I am not stating a position for either side to be clear up front.

But looking through this thread and the two sides of the debate never agreeing just exemplifies the situation in the region. There are arguments for both sides and until people can look beyond those this is exactly what will continue as it has for decades.

I have been to the region several times and have met wonderful people on both sides (ordinary citizens). This is typical of people in all the countries I have visited. The vast majority of people are good people. There are bad everywhere too!

In this case it is the politics that get in the way and I am not sure of the best path forward as i don't have the background required.

My thoughts

[TherapyforGlencross]

Hopefully cooler heads prevail. I don’t think Israel will be as restrained as they were during the last Iranian attack. Reports saying Iran is calling for a direct attack. We shall see.

[afc wimbledon]

Just to be clear all land isn't equal, pulling out of Gaza was and still is risk free for Israel, as awful as Oct 7th was that is as bad as an attack out of Gaza gets, Gaza never has posed an existential threat to Israel where as an attack on the West Bank does, it is the high ground that overlooks the whole country and gives Israel a buffer of an extra days march to the coast, without a guarantee of peace Israel would be insane to give it up

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Just to be clear all land isn't equal, pulling out of Gaza was and still is risk free for Israel, as awful as Oct 7th was that is as bad as an attack out of Gaza gets, Gaza never has posed an existential threat to Israel where as an attack on the West Bank does, it is the high ground that overlooks the whole country and gives Israel a buffer of an extra days march to the coast, without a guarantee of peace Israel would be insane to give it up

This keeps getting repeated, but it isn't legal to take something just because it is strategic. Would you say "sure, have at 'er" if the US said they required the Canadian arctic to protect the US mainland from Russian attacks? All yours, guys!

And it's not just that they are holding it, it's that they are illegally kicking Palestinians off their lands, out of their houses, denying any sort of real due process, killing them, preventing free movement, access to healthcare, birthing support, and building massive settlements. So as far as I'm concerned, they can take that bull#### excuse and shove it up their asses. Because "strategic defense" doesn't include all of the above, and I think you'd have to be a bit of a rube to buy that at this point. Actions speak far louder than words here. I'd give them a lot more leeway if they weren't doing this, and were only using the strategic defense reasoning for staying there. That's not the case.

Seriously, go watch John Oliver before trying to refute this, it's all happening. He's a lot better at investigating it than I am.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by blankall

From the Israeli perspective, terrorist recruitment is already at a 10/10, so they are better off trying to quell the existing terrorists.

Your whole premise is that every Palestinian is a terrorist, and therefore every Palestinian, including children who in my belief are born innocent, deserve to be treated like a terrorist.

Welcome to eternal conflict, I guess?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Your whole premise is that every Palestinian is a terrorist, and therefore every Palestinian, including children who in my belief are born innocent, deserve to be treated like a terrorist.

Welcome to eternal conflict, I guess?

My premise isn't that at all. There are, however, enough Palestinians that are terrorists that there is a genuine threat to Israel. The geography works against peace, unfortunately. As stated, the majority of Israelis live in the small strips of land where Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are located. this means that the West Bank will only ever be a few metres away.

If you have a widely supported organization, like Hamas, with billions of dollars of weapons dedicated to Israel's destruction, Israelis aren't going to be too eager to allow that organization to operate just outside of Tel Aviv/Jerusalem.

Your premise is based upon:

1. A downplaying of this risk; and
2. This idea that Israel is guilty by just existing and should, therefore, have to tolerate a high degree of terrorist attacks against them.

There constant lip service as to how bad Hamas is, but no acknowledgement that Israel has to deal with that risk or acceptable plan to deal with that risk.

And if October 7 doesn't illustrate exactly what Hamas' plans are, then what does? What does Israel do if its 10,000 Hamas operatives pouring into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem? And yes, that is a true possibility without security measures.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

My premise isn't that at all. There are, however, enough Palestinians that are terrorists that there is a genuine threat to Israel. The geography works against peace, unfortunately. As stated, the majority of Israelis live in the small strips of land where Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are located. this means that the West Bank will only ever be a few metres away.

If you have a widely supported organization, like Hamas, with billions of dollars of weapons dedicated to Israel's destruction, Israelis aren't going to be too eager to allow that organization to operate just outside of Tel Aviv/Jerusalem.

Your premise is based upon:

1. A downplaying of this risk; and
2. This idea that Israel is guilty by just existing and should, therefore, have to tolerate a high degree of terrorist attacks against them.

There constant lip service as to how bad Hamas is, but no acknowledgement that Israel has to deal with that risk or acceptable plan to deal with that risk.

And if October 7 doesn't illustrate exactly what Hamas' plans are, then what does? What does Israel do if its 10,000 Hamas operatives pouring into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem? And yes, that is a true possibility without security measures.

What's the excuse for building settlements and treating existing residents like trash to be bulldozed? Guilt by skin colour? Too bad, so sad? Entitlement by god? What is it?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What's the excuse for building settlements and treating existing residents like trash to be bulldozed? Guilt by skin colour? Too bad, so sad? Entitlement by god? What is it?

Skin colour? You do know that most Israeli Jews are descended from people that came from middle eastern and Muslim countries? This projection of white racism onto Israel is really baffling.

The settlers are largely religious nut jobs. The average Israeli doesn't stop them, because they create a buffer between the Israeli city centres and the terrorist groups. As stated, Israel offered the Palestinians 95% of the WB plus land swaps, that offer was rejected and instead a widescale militant campaign was supported. Now fewer Israelis want that campaign within a few metres of there home.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

This keeps getting repeated, but it isn't legal to take something just because it is strategic. Would you say "sure, have at 'er" if the US said they required the Canadian arctic to protect the US mainland from Russian attacks? All yours, guys!

And it's not just that they are holding it, it's that they are illegally kicking Palestinians off their lands, out of their houses, denying any sort of real due process, killing them, preventing free movement, access to healthcare, birthing support, and building massive settlements. So as far as I'm concerned, they can take that bull#### excuse and shove it up their asses. Because "strategic defense" doesn't include all of the above, and I think you'd have to be a bit of a rube to buy that at this point. Actions speak far louder than words here. I'd give them a lot more leeway if they weren't doing this, and were only using the strategic defense reasoning for staying there. That's not the case.

Seriously, go watch John Oliver before trying to refute this, it's all happening. He's a lot better at investigating it than I am.

Oh I'm not saying any off this is legal, but countries don't have to live by laws, in the end countries live by 'might is right', Israel can do what it wants to Gaza and the West Bank because it can, no one is going to stop them

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

Skin colour? You do know that most Israeli Jews are descended from people that came from middle eastern and Muslim countries? This projection of white racism onto Israel is really baffling.

The settlers are largely religious nut jobs. The average Israeli doesn't stop them, because they create a buffer between the Israeli city centres and the terrorist groups. As stated, Israel offered the Palestinians 95% of the WB plus land swaps, that offer was rejected and instead a widescale militant campaign was supported. Now fewer Israelis want that campaign within a few metres of there home.

Could you dodge a question harder? I honestly just think you are incredibly misinformed on how poorly Israel treats them, and again, I'd tell you to watch John Oliver's episode if you care at all about reality. I think you right off settlers as not being part of Israel as an easy way to deflect. Yet Israeli settlers are supported with massive funds from Israeli taxpayers. Where does the responsibility stop?