[Signing] Flames sign Huberdeau to long term extension (8 yrs, $10.5 mil AAV)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If you dig into those comparables, there are reasons each one aredifferent than Huberdeau.

Marner is often cited as a not so great contract for a winger At 26 years old, his career average full season point pace is 91 points. At that age, Huberdeau's average was 67 points. Marner's contract also gives you more premium years. Of course as you point out, it was signed earlier and not buying many UFA years. So not apples to apples.

I don't really think the Huberdeau contract was great when it was signed and no discount for the 8 year term at all. Those praising it absolutely looked at the record setting 115 point season. The hope was certainly for more than an occasional 80 point season, that was kind of hoped to be the absolute lowpoint with more higher point totals offsetting it.

Yes, there's always differences. Tavares is maybe the closest. But he's a centre (albeit a 2C on that team).

The negotiation was "we expect you to take Gaudreau's place on the team". "OK, what were you offering him". IIRC the Gaudreau offer was pretty well known at that time.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yes, there's always differences. Tavares is maybe the closest. But he's a centre (albeit a 2C on that team).

The negotiation was "we expect you to take Gaudreau's place on the team". "OK, what were you offering him". IIRC the Gaudreau offer was pretty well known at that time.

A lot of lessons learned there for sure.

The year before Gaudreau wasn't worth $9M to the Flames, maybe $8M or so. Next year same player, after a big year, gets a $10.5M offer. One big year really swayed the Flames and that was for a player the Flames knew much better than Huberdeau.

Of course easy to see now that neither player were worth that. Huberdeau even less so if for no other reason that he was a year older when the deal kicked in.

Conroy is probably a few seasons away from looking at needing to make similar contract decisions.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by dino7c

True but he isn't being paid like a 115 point player either. Guy gets 85-90 and we are laughing

Start laughing then, because he isn't getting that many points.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Edwards is one of the sharpest guys I ever worked with. He knew contracts he was dealing with inside out, and was a hard-ass negotiator.

But he likes money and a playoff round or two every year makes up for a whole year of just meeting expenses. A cup would be great but I think he generally wants to have a team that (a) draws ordinary fans (as opposed to more focused ones like on this board) and (b) wants the revenue from POs.

Yep, you nailed it from an inside perspective why he's a terrible owner. Sports are different from ordinary business, which is why a sizable number of billionaires come into sports ownership and run things like nincompoops. They see cost benefit analysis in the year to year, like a regular business, but can't fathom sports fandom trends, can't fathom losing a bit present day (young fans) to bring in future season ticket holders, can't see bottoming out to try to create a new elite core.

They just look at year by year revenue "if we push upward this year for the 10th year in a row, despite no top end talent that could truly compete for a cup, we could get the 7th playoff spot and that's minimum $10mil in playoff revenue that pays for 1/8 of our player salaries, but if they catch Lightening we could pay for half the roster in a mini run!!!!".

[Locke]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Start laughing then, because he isn't getting that many points.

Well...not in one season anyways.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If you dig into those comparables, there are reasons each one aredifferent than Huberdeau.

Marner is often cited as a not so great contract for a winger At 26 years old, his career average full season point pace is 91 points. At that age, Huberdeau's average was 67 points. Marner's contract also gives you more premium years. Of course as you point out, it was signed earlier and not buying many UFA years. So not apples to apples.

I don't really think the Huberdeau contract was great when it was signed and no discount for the 8 year term at all. Those praising it absolutely looked at the record setting 115 point season. The hope was certainly for more than an occasional 80 point season, that was kind of hoped to be the absolute lowpoint with more higher point totals offsetting it.

Career average is a terrible way of looking at things. Huberdeau wasn't paid for his 20 year old season where he put up 28 points in 69 games.

This is Huberdeau in the six seasons leading up to trade (age 23-28):

• An average of 91 points per 82 games
• Three consecutive seasons of being tops in AST voting (2, 2, and 4)
• Three seasons of being top 10 in assists
• Two seasons of being top 10 in points

Huberdeau wasn't an all-star, but he was a star and one of the best LWs in the league for multiple seasons. His credentials were similar to Gaudreau on paper, albeit a different style of player.

This revisionist history about Huberdeau not being good at hockey, Flames fans not expecting a star that would be a consistent PPG+ player, and fans not being excited about signing him to that contract (discount or not) needs to stop. You guys are embarrassing yourselves with these "contrarian" takes.

[Locke]

Maybe he's doing that Millennial 'Quiet Quitting' thing?

He got paid and then gave up?

[boogerz]

The problems with Huberdeau and the Flames' misutilization of his skills are well documented.

Maybe the coaching staff should start coaching to the strengths of their $10.5M AAV player if the Flames want to salvage the contract.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Locke

Maybe he's doing that Millennial 'Quiet Quitting' thing?

He got paid and then gave up?

What do you see in his play, aside from points, indicates this? The consensus on this board is his effort is fine.

It’s a big combination of his play style not meshing with the team’s style, linemates not catching on to his funky passing, his self-confidence (which shows up when he gets on a roll, like in January), the powerplay not running through him for some reason, etc.

It’s not a surprise that he had more success with two guys who were new to the team.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What do you see in his play, aside from points, indicates this? The consensus on this board is his effort is fine.

It’s a big combination of his play style not meshing with the team’s style, linemates not catching on to his funky passing, his self-confidence (which shows up when he gets on a roll, like in January), the powerplay not running through him for some reason, etc.

It’s not a surprise that he had more success with two guys who were new to the team.

Oh no. I'm being highly sarcastic. Just you wait until I criticize him for quitting because he's French and thats just what they do.

Its like their National Sport.

[Vinny01]

This all lies at the feet of Treliving. He fumbled the face of the franchise and lost him for nothing and then the next captain of the team and the best player on the roster decides he doesn’t want to be here. Benefit of hindsight it would have given the team ample time to begin a tear down and rebuild to possibly have a legit contender in place by the time the new rink opened.

Instead he doubled down on the supporting cast (most of which had 2 years left on their deals) likely facing the pressure of having Sutter still here but still you lose your best players you are unlikely going to be able to keep a contender together.

Acquiring 2 guys who were pending UFA’s after losing your 2 best players almost forced the organization to sign these guys. The Huberdeau deal was a formality once he said he was willing to stay. The Gaudreau offer was public and Huberdeau had matched the point total and had been more consistent in terms of scoring over the previous 4 years so you were not getting him for a penny less than you were offering Gaudreau. We were all emotional and ecstatic when Huby, Kadri, and Weegar signed but the hope was this team is going to remain a top team.

The league praised Treliving for his incompetence by salvaging value from Tkachuk and signing the second best free agent after Gaudreau on the market but he was now locked into 2 29 year olds for 9 years and a 32 year old for 7. Treliving decides to leave a year later after it was clear his plan was a huge fail.

With what happened with Gaudreau/Tkachuk the team HAD to sign Huberdeau to calm the fans, and Huby would have been crazy to turn down that deal with all the signing bonuses and guaranteed money. As someone who was largely a Trelviing supporter while he was here I have come around to dislike him as much as I did Jay Feaster.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by boogerz

The problems with Huberdeau and the Flames' misutilization of his skills are well documented.

Maybe the coaching staff should start coaching to the strengths of their $10.5M AAV player if the Flames want to salvage the contract.

That and hopefully he finds some chemistry with the new players coming in. With the Flames rebuilding the agenda has changed, age and time are not on his side. It Might be too late before the Flames can start building around him. As of now it doesn't look like the Flames are in a win now mode. It looks like the Flames are going to move forward regardless.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Career average is a terrible way of looking at things. Huberdeau wasn't paid for his 20 year old season where he put up 28 points in 69 games.

This is Huberdeau in the six seasons leading up to trade (age 23-28):

• An average of 91 points per 82 games
• Three consecutive seasons of being tops in AST voting (2, 2, and 4)
• Three seasons of being top 10 in assists
• Two seasons of being top 10 in points

Huberdeau wasn't an all-star, but he was a star and one of the best LWs in the league for multiple seasons. His credentials were similar to Gaudreau on paper, albeit a different style of player.

This revisionist history about Huberdeau not being good at hockey, Flames fans not expecting a star that would be a consistent PPG+ player, and fans not being excited about signing him to that contract (discount or not) needs to stop. You guys are embarrassing yourselves with these "contrarian" takes.

So you don't want to look at career averages, but you want to look at All star voting? Career average in comparing two players (in this case Marner and Huberdeau) is simply a data point. I'd certainly argue that career average is worth factoring in lest you place too much value on a single career year.

Who is revising history saying Huberdeau wasn't good at hockey? Of course people were excited to see him play, I know I was.

Comparing his credentials to Gaudreau is a reasonable take. Gaudreau signed a 7 year contract for $68 million that kicked in at age 29. Huberdeau signed an 8 year $84 million contract that kicked in at age 30. Just at face value that is a much worse deal.

If you're willing to try and understand what went wrong with the Huberdeau contract I'd say you're being the contrarian.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So you don't want to look at career averages, but you want to look at All star voting? Career average in comparing two players (in this case Marner and Huberdeau) is simply a data point. I'd certainly argue that career average is worth factoring in lest you place too much value on a single career year.

Who is revising history saying Huberdeau wasn't good at hockey? Of course people were excited to see him play, I know I was.

Comparing his credentials to Gaudreau is a reasonable take. Gaudreau signed a 7 year contract for $68 million that kicked in at age 29. Huberdeau signed an 8 year $84 million contract that kicked in at age 30. Just at face value that is a much worse deal.

If you're willing to try and understand what went wrong with the Huberdeau contract I'd say you're being the contrarian.

PLayers don't get paid on career averages that include their 18 year old rookie season, unless you are McDavid or someone like that.

HE got paid for his best years which came the 5 years prior to him being traded here. He was a consistent PPG player.

If you have trouble understanding that, that is your issue and always has been with your hardon for Huberdeau and going on and on and on and on about the same ####.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What do you see in his play, aside from points, indicates this? The consensus on this board is his effort is fine.

It’s a big combination of his play style not meshing with the team’s style, linemates not catching on to his funky passing, his self-confidence (which shows up when he gets on a roll, like in January), the powerplay not running through him for some reason, etc.

It’s not a surprise that he had more success with two guys who were new to the team.

I would agree that he displays a very positive attitude for the most part but rarely have i thought he was a hard working player at both ends of the ice.

IMO he hasn't quit on the team a la Neal or Kadri at different points. But I suspect he has more to give on the effort front and there certainly have been comments periodically from the organization to that effect.

I wonder how his fitness and practice habits compare.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Locke

Oh no. I'm being highly sarcastic. Just you wait until I criticize him for quitting because he's French and thats just what they do.

Its like their National Sport.

If it was that easy Uwe Krupp would get the GM job, and the contract would be surrendered.

[blankall]

It's fairly obvious that Florida has a different system than the Flames, which allowed Huberdeau to be so effective offensively there. They aren't forcing players into two way or complete rolls the way the Flames historically have.

You can see this in the way Huberdeau has failed in Calgary, and former Flames have excelled in Florida. They're giving Tkachuk over 70% offensive zone starts in Florida. Whatever Florida is doing is obviously working for them, as they won the cup.

The question is why did the Flames bring in a guy like Huberdeau, who was playing in such a vastly different system into the Flames system, with Sutter forcing everyone to play a two way game. Seems like a total scouting/management failure. Did they not discuss this with Sutter ahead of time?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's fairly obvious that Florida has a different system than the Flames, which allowed Huberdeau to be so effective offensively there. They aren't forcing players into two way or complete rolls the way the Flames historically have.

You can see this in the way Huberdeau has failed in Calgary, and former Flames have excelled in Florida. They're giving Tkachuk over 70% offensive zone starts in Florida. Whatever Florida is doing is obviously working for them, as they won the cup.

The question is why did the Flames bring in a guy like Huberdeau, who was playing in such a vastly different system into the Flames system, with Sutter forcing everyone to play a two way game. Seems like a total scouting/management failure. Did they not discuss this with Sutter ahead of time?

He was a Johnny replacement and Gaudreau had come off a very good season. That said, my suspicion that year was that Gaudreau and Tkachuk were ignoring what Sutter said to do. And relying on Lindholm defensively.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Career average is a terrible way of looking at things. Huberdeau wasn't paid for his 20 year old season where he put up 28 points in 69 games.

This is Huberdeau in the six seasons leading up to trade (age 23-28):

• An average of 91 points per 82 games
• Three consecutive seasons of being tops in AST voting (2, 2, and 4)
• Three seasons of being top 10 in assists
• Two seasons of being top 10 in points

Huberdeau wasn't an all-star, but he was a star and one of the best LWs in the league for multiple seasons. His credentials were similar to Gaudreau on paper, albeit a different style of player.

This revisionist history about Huberdeau not being good at hockey, Flames fans not expecting a star that would be a consistent PPG+ player, and fans not being excited about signing him to that contract (discount or not) needs to stop. You guys are embarrassing yourselves with these "contrarian" takes.

Plus, he was regularly a lock on lots of mock up Olympic Team Canada rosters, so people who say he wasn't a star back then are just flat out wrong.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yes, there's always differences. Tavares is maybe the closest. But he's a centre (albeit a 2C on that team).

The negotiation was "we expect you to take Gaudreau's place on the team". "OK, what were you offering him". IIRC the Gaudreau offer was pretty well known at that time.

Yup the Gaudreau offer of $10.5M x 8 seemed to be pretty common knowledge and Huberdeau / Allen would have had that info.

This was my initial reaction:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Would have liked it to be less than the 8 x $10.5M but would have been tough when Huberdeau knew what you offered Gaudreau and was coming off the exact same season.

So yeah I don't think it was getting done for less than what was offered to Gaudreau...especially considering it hypothetically should have been harder to get Huberdeau to forego free agency than it would have been to get Gaudreau to forego it.